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Replies: 11 / Views: 980 |
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Valued Member
United States
218 Posts |
Medieval coins seem to be the neglected middle child, with ancients and moderns getting all the attention (and insane PRs!). I suppose it's not really surprising. There's no Redbook or Krause or Spink for medieval coins as a whole. There are no dedicated medieval coin clubs or publications (not in the US, at least). And all the coin journals, magazines, and internet forums (even CCF  ) lump medievals in with ancients -- an implicit statement that a field comprising 1000 years of history and countless coin issuing authorities can't stand on its own. So... how did you get into medieval coins? Is it a collecting focus for you, or just a side interest? Do you buy a medieval coin because it looks interesting, or do you focus your collecting on a time or place or theme? Edited by samoth 05/09/2024 7:59 pm
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Moderator
 Australia
16816 Posts |
Coins are a continuum, and know nothing of these artificial lines in the history books that divide history into periods. Nobody in late ancient times ever sat down and said "Okay, we're gonna start making our coins mediaevally now". It happened slowly and gradually.
I collect coins. All of them, ancient through to modern. Mediaeval coins are just a subset of the broader "coins" category.
That being said, I do put them into a separate album.
I think the first mediaeval coin in my collection was one of those awful-looking little silver denars from Lucca; a mail-order dealer I subscribed to back in the early 1980s had a bulk lot of them for sale. Next would have been a couple of English hammered pennies in the early 1990s.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5172 Posts |
Quote: Coins are a continuum, and know nothing of these artificial lines in the history books that divide history into periods. Nobody in late ancient times ever sat down and said "Okay, we're gonna start making our coins mediaevally now". It happened slowly and gradually. Yeah; it looks like the standard "ancient" and "medieval" coins are a sharp transition, but for the most part that's because the transitional types are mostly all rare (and to a large extent are also mostly gold, which is harder to collect), and in most of the remaining cases the transition is either "the people kind of stopped making coins at all for a while because there were enough foreign coinage to go around" or "the Arabs came in and started making coinage in their style which was absolutely unlike whatever was there before". (And in a few early cases of the latter there are still transitional types.) Numismatists tend to use specific coinage reforms as convenient boundaries, but of course the reforms happened at different times in different regions, they didn't always affect the entire range of denominations, and even within a particular regions sometimes there's disputes over which specific reform is the important one. Of course the transition between medieval and modern is, if anything, even more complicated; if we go by style then [even aside from the multitude of transitional types] we end up having to call some 20th century coins medieval, at least outside Europe ( this coin was minted in 1910 AD, and AFAIK there are some similar Indian examples going into the 1940s), and coinage reforms (where they occurred at all) were typically even more piecemeal than in the ancient/medieval conversion (with old and new types running concurrently in different denominations, sometimes for centuries), so we're basically forced to give a generic arbitrary-ish date (1600 on CCF, but usually somewhere in the second half of the 15th century) and pretend it works as a division because there isn't really anything better.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7936 Posts |
Well-framed, and great idea for a thread!
I started collecting with Whitman folders as an elementary school kid, and my dad's pouch of foreign coins from his WWII deployment. I also liked geography and history as a kid. But that doesn't get me to medeival.
A couple of things happened once I was a mid-teen with a bit of money from a part-time job to spend on coins. In those days, the New York Times still had a page or two on stamps and coins in their Arts and Leisure section, and some ads. Like Sap, I stuck ten bucks in an envelope for a 13th century hammered English penny, and was delighted by what I got (a far cry from what came in the mail from Littleton and a couple of other mail order places whose names I've forgotten). Not long after, my older brother spent a summer as a student in Spain, and brought me back some coins from the Sunday stamp & coin market in the Plaza Major: 17th century Spanish, and one old Moroccan dirhem. I read Barabara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror, which I think was a pretty big hit in the U.S. at the time, and helped introduce a lot of us to the medieval world.
In mid mid-20s, I spent a school year working at a lab in Lorraine, with some extracurricular travel to see family in Poland. I think the exposure to such older cultures pretty much sealed the deal, though I didn't have much extra cash for coins, not least because we were planning our wedding for the following spring.
What finally triggered more substantial acquisition of medievals was a job posting to Brussels in my mid-40s and getting introduced to Elsen. The first auction I participated in I was accompanied by my 10 year old son, and I think his excitement and enthusiasm was also a factor (I remember picking up a 14th century Hungarian florin, a pair of 15th century Brabant coins, and a nice early 16th c Sigismund I Polish groat). I wound up starting a "OFER" (One From Every Reign) collection of the three places I've mentioned: Duchy of Lorraine, Kingdom of Poland, and Duchy of Brabant. What these places have in common is that their coinage started solidly in the medieval era (practically speaking during the 12th c. for each), and ended in the 18th c. (1736, 1795 and 1715 respectively). Over time, that morphed into assembling an OFEY across those themes and one more theme that coalesced more recently, coins with images of saints.
I doubt I will expand to ancients, but I picked up my first Byzantine less than 3 years ago, and am now up to 7, so who knows?
Edited by tdziemia 05/10/2024 10:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Sweden
2124 Posts |
In my collection I have a number of medieval coins, but I do not collect them specifically because they are medieval. They are part of my collection of (mostly) French coins, which range from 480 BC* to 2001 AD. My first French coins were 19th century, then I worked my way back in time as I Iearnt more about the coinage and history of France. For the medieval part of that journey, it was sometimes confusing (with more than a hundred feudal states issuing their own coins, in addition to the royal issues) and frustrating (with coins difficult to attribute or narrow down in time). With time, I came to appreciate the complexity of the coinage and the mix of artistic skills and creativity at all levels that were expressed on the coins of that period. But it is still just part of my French collection, and I enjoy the coins from other periods just as much. When it comes to selecting coins, I have three general criteria: It should be interesting in some way, it should possess a certain beauty, and it should be of good quality, XF or better. Now, for medieval coins, one often has to compromise with the quality, and "beauty" must sometimes be interpreted generously, but finding coins that are interesting is easy. It can be that it was issued by some historically interesting person (like Richard the Lionheart), was the first of a new type of coin (like the gros tournois, the first larger French silver coin), or was used for trade in a larger area (several feudal deniers of known good quality had immobilized designs and were used regionally for centuries). * The 480 BC minters didn't know they were French, of course. They thought of themselves as Greek colonizers of Massalia, today's Marseille.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1563 Posts |
I don't particularly collect medieval coins, but do have some and find them interesting as there are so many varieties. I got interested in medieval hammered through metal detecting. I was 12/13 when I was first introduced to the hobby and already had a strong liking for collecting 'modern' coins to learn the dates of kings and queens. After finding my first coin, an Edward VII Penny, I was hooked. I didn't find my first hammered until a year into the hobby. When I dug it out and cleaned it with a bit of water I couldn't believe my eyes, it was an Elizabeth I Shilling. Since then, over the past 38 years or so, I grew my collection of these lovely hammered as well as Roman. For me I suppose collecting these is a side interest but even today I get a funny feeling in my stomach when I uncover any type of Hammered coin. The coins I really like are Celtic and Saxon, but these are a little out of my price range but when one comes along at the right price I do try and buy them. Thanks for starting this thread Samoth, very interesting reading! 
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Valued Member
 United States
218 Posts |
Some very interesting replies!
One important factor for me, which I'm surprised wasn't already mentioned: cost.
I started delving into numismatics after college, finding early American coppers the most interesting. It wasn't long before I realized that not only had every series & topic already been researched & published, but forming an important collection was well beyond my means... or, more specifically, outside my socioeconomic class. For example,
- 1804 dollar (15 known): $2M-10M - 1802 half dime (30-40 known): $75k in AG-3 to $600k in AU - 1793 strawberry leaf large cent (four known): $500k-$1M - 1786-88 New Jersey colonial top rarities (1-3 known): $250k-$750k
What fun is "collecting" something I could never afford? (And no, I don't want the cheaper common coins. I want rare and important coins!)
So I wandered into coins from the middle ages (a general interest since childhood), then into some specific subfields such as early dated European coins (wait, where did numerals come from?). Here I found opportunities for research, publication of reference works that don't yet exist, and prices that are attainable for an average professional... with some sacrifices elsewhere in life. For some personal examples,
- 1474 Guelders briquet (4-6 known outside museums): $350 - 1466 Saxony horngroshen variety (4-6 known outside museums): $175 - Unique Liege double briquet variety pedigreed to early 1800s: $550 - 1478 Mors stuber (3-5 known outside museums): $1k
My cost perspective is obviously US-centric, but I imagine medieval coins provide a more favorable cost-to-rarity ratio for collectors in other countries as well.
An added benefit is that medieval coins give me an excuse to buy lots of books. Not just numismatic references, monographs, & auction catalogs, but also works on history, language, numerals, cartography, & economics.
Edited by samoth 05/12/2024 1:11 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5172 Posts |
Quote: One important factor for me, which I'm surprised wasn't already mentioned: cost. On my own end, for most of my collecting period, cost was a big factor against getting into medievals... I could get some nice modern coins for $5-10 per coin (and often less), and some nice ancient coins for about as much (or not much more), but medieval coinage usually started at $20-30 and went up from there, and my budget struggled with considering purchases that large. (In retrospect I could easily have bought one $50 coin instead of ten $5 coins all along, but it was really really hard to think that way, so I usually didn't unless I saw something that I really wanted to have.) Eventually I did start getting somewhat into medievals, both as part of my attempt to get a coin from every century (and then as part of my progress towards trying to get a dated coin from every century, which by the way is a lot harder than it sounds even if we're only counting AD centuries, but not actually impossible), and because I started finding more and more coins in that time period that interested me and that (with my increasing earnings) I could now afford. Unfortunately shortly afterwards came 2022, the draft scares, and the international move, and since mid-2022 (or so) I basically put all my coin collecting on pause (but particularly its non-modern part, since the laws of my current country make collecting medieval coins a lot harder than it used to be in Russia). As a side-note, we'd be happy to see your coins in How Far Back Can We Go! We're (sadly) past the 1470s and 1460s (and wouldn't get there again until 2026), but if you have something from the 1440s, 1430s, or 1420s (or 1410s or 1400s or 1390s... but those are increasingly rare) it would be quite appreciated at the appropriate date.
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Bedrock of the Community
United Kingdom
17911 Posts |
For me, medieval coins are not my main sphere of interest, and it's partly because of the cost (as january1may pointed out) and availability. My first two medieval coins were Edward III silver pennies bought from an antique shop when I was 14. I've since bought a few and found some with my metal detector. Rural England is not full of buried hammered silver pennies - you can spend three days searching farmland witout finding any! But I have found hammered Scottish and Spanish coins as well as English halfpennies and pennies: I've never found any English medieval coin larger than a penny. I have bought a handful of medieval coins including examples from Hungary and France.
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Valued Member
 United States
218 Posts |
Quote: ... and since mid-2022 (or so) I basically put all my coin collecting on pause (but particularly its non-modern part, since the laws of my current country make collecting medieval coins a lot harder than it used to be in Russia). Interesting you mention that... earlier this year I had to acquire a "cultural heritage" export license from Belgium to ship medieval coins to the US. I never had to that before from any country. I always thought these regulations were something only ancients collectors had to worry about, but that appears to be changing. Quote: As a side-note, we'd be happy to see your coins in How Far Back Can We Go! We're (sadly) past the 1470s and 1460s (and wouldn't get there again until 2026), but if you have something from the 1440s, 1430s, or 1420s (or 1410s or 1400s or 1390s... but those are increasingly rare) it would be quite appreciated at the appropriate date. I'd love to as soon as I get around to buying a numismatic photography setup -- I have dated coins from the '20s, '30s & '40s. (I've never had a smartphone, which is what most people use; only a 15-year-old digital camera that's not great for stuff like coins.) On a side note, the US auction house CNG has 1375,1404, 1405, & 1418 Aachen groschens coming up in a couple weeks, but they're probably going to hammer for more than I care to spend at this time... although I do want that 1375 
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7936 Posts |
The cost perspective is very interesting.
Maybe we Americans just have "history envy." But it's undeniable that it's a lot easier on the wallet to nab an early English penny, gros tournois, Venetian grosso, or even a 13th century florin, than an early U.S. dollar.
As for the cultural heritage license, it's been in place in Italy for quite a while for medievals, but yes, this year was the first time I experienced it in Belgium (I will add from that first experience that the Belgians are a lot more efficient than the Italians).
Lastly, I just use a digital camera (and reasonably steady hands) for my photography. Reasonable outcomes 75% of the time.
Edited by tdziemia 05/12/2024 10:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5172 Posts |
Quote: Maybe we Americans just have "history envy." But it's undeniable that it's a lot easier on the wallet to nab an early English penny, gros tournois, Venetian grosso, or even a 13th century florin, than an early U.S. dollar.
On my end it's that but also... for me it was a good deal easier (especially if I wasn't going to auctions) to get a pretty 4th century Roman AE3 (or AE2 even!), some 2nd century denarii and 3rd century antoniniani, maybe some Greek bronzes and one or two small silvers (my 5th century BC hemiobol cost me all of $20), and a pile of mostly-identifiable early 5th century AE3s and AE4s, than it was to find any medieval coins (with a few Byzantine exceptions that barely even counted as medieval, and of course ignoring Northern Song coinage which is very common but also only counts as medieval because it's technically in the same time period). ...In the years I was collecting, it wouldn't have stretched me that much to even get an early Byzantine tremissis. (~$150 by my recollection.) I'm still sometimes a little sad that I never had the courage to do that.
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Replies: 11 / Views: 980 |
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