Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Specializing in Modern Numismatics 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Shop CCF Members on eBay! Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Sem/Eds Analysis On The Honduras Provisional Eight Reales Cu/Pb Issues

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 5 / Views: 283Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2026  10:18 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Currently working on my third paper with SEM/EDS Analysis on the Provisional 8 Reales but in this paper also building in XRF analysis withe help of Winston Zack (Bad Metal author). Why do they look so bad? These crude pieces were intentionally made with high Pb (~3-5% - sometimes as high as 15%) to increase their weight. Most were not even silvered! TPG's and major auction houses have basically erred in their physical/numerical preservation descriptions with terms such as Tooled, Environmental Damage, etc. Overview: Lead behaves in a very predictable—and very destructive—way in these crude Honduran provisional 8 Reales because it is fundamentally incompatible with copper at the temperatures and conditions these workshops operated under. In a proper metallurgical environment, copper melts around 1085 °C, while lead melts at only 327 °C and remains immiscible in copper unless the melt is extremely hot and vigorously stirred. The provisional mints never achieved anything close to that. Their furnaces ran cool, the metal was recycled scrap, and the melt was barely homogenized. As a result, the lead never dissolved into the copper matrix; instead, it separated into droplets and pockets within the flan as it cooled. These droplets migrated toward grain boundaries, voids, and flow lines—essentially all the structural weak points created by rushed casting or striking.
Once the coin entered circulation, those trapped lead pockets became the seeds of surface disruption. Lead is softer, more reactive, and more prone to corrosion than copper. When exposed to moisture, soil acids, or even mild handling, the lead inclusions oxidized and expanded slightly, pushing outward on the surrounding copper. Over decades, this produced tiny pits, blisters, and "microcraters" exactly like what you've observed. The effect is subtle but diagnostic: the pits are usually round, shallow, and irregularly distributed, matching the original distribution of lead droplets in the alloy. Even at higher concentrations—10-15% Pb—the disturbance remains primarily microcratering rather than large-scale deformation because the lead is still trapped in discrete pockets rather than forming continuous veins.
Everything else that looks "wrong" on these coins really does trace back to poor manufacturing rather than the lead itself. The flans were unevenly cast or crudely rolled, the dies were worn or hand-cut, the strikes were weak, and the cooling process introduced internal stresses. These factors create lamination cracks, fissures, voids, and rough surfaces that collectors sometimes misattribute to corrosion or impurities. Lead only amplifies the smallest of these flaws by creating localized pits; it does not cause the major structural defects. In fact, the overall appearance of these coins—wavy surfaces, uneven rims, distorted lettering—comes from the chaotic production environment, not from the alloy composition. https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...tails-tooled
TIME TO CORRECT. See my other two papers on Kleeberg CCC2R's and transfer dies (EPN Portal) and Monoclova (EPN & MNA) also on the Mexican Numismatic Association (MNA) website under the War of Independence category of research papers. My next paper this year in November again with SEM/EDS with XRF will explore "Why is the Jefferson nickel in the 20thC the most laminated prone error coin?" Any guesses from the audience as the answer is already solved - just need to prove it in the lab.
Edited by colonialjohn
02/04/2026 10:30 am
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2026  12:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting, always when it comes to metal technology in relation to coins, both genuine and fake.
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
187530 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7933 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2026  09:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm especially interested in your comments on the Jefferson nickel, because I've also noticed they are more prone to lamination (especially the War Nickels). I would guess that again we are talking about the phase behavior inducing defects in the planchets. Or maybe responding to the stamping force in a way that enhances some structral defect (for instance the shear forces converting a droplet into a plate).

I've never gone looking for a phase diagram of the War Nickel alloy, but expect the manganese really complicates things, and maybe makes phase separation easier.
Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
94665 Posts
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2026  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes - High manganese enrichment on the surface of Jefferson War Nickels is a direct consequence of how poorly the wartime alloy behaved during rolling and striking, and it's the underlying driver of their notorious laminations. The 56% Cu / 35% Ag / 9% Mn alloy was never truly homogeneous—manganese has a high affinity for oxygen and forms brittle oxides during melting. As the strip was rolled, these Mn rich oxides were smeared into thin, discontinuous layers just beneath the surface. Because these layers don't bond well to the surrounding copper-silver matrix, they create in planes of weakness that later manifest as peeling, flaking, or "woodgrain" separations.
Once the coin enters circulation, even mild mechanical stress—pocket wear, small impacts, or thermal cycling—can exploit those weak Mn oxide seams. The metal above them lifts or detaches, producing classic lamination flaws. In other words, the problem isn't that manganese is present, but that it segregates and oxidizes in ways the mint couldn't control. The alloy's internal architecture is already compromised before the coin is struck, and the laminations we see today are simply the visible expression of those manganese rich, poorly bonded layers breaking free over time.
I noticed this about a decade ago - but never reported or published the evidence. So will be doing this Microstructure evaluation later this year in November or so ... JPL.
Edited by colonialjohn
02/10/2026 5:38 pm
  Previous TopicReplies: 5 / Views: 283Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.28 seconds to rattle this change. Forums