| Author |
 Replies: 39 / Views: 4,018 |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
As for if any US law can apply to the situation, I don't believe there are any.
How could one prove that the seller knowingly inserted the wrong picture?
How could one prove it wasn't an error?
To many "ifs" for a court to get involved, but I'm sure there are lawyers who will take up a case is someone has money to spend
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2520 Posts |
Quote:
It's not even close to a fair comparison. Grade is a matter of opinion. The year is not. It is what it is. Period.
(Did you read the part where I said "because seller sent a coin different from the one pictured"? But shipping a coin that is different than the one you listed is not! As is shown by the last set of photos posted, the coin listed was not the one sent. The seller should assume reponsibility of his mistake and refund, postage included if requested by the buyer. (And not claim that he never had a 1945 "which is clearly pictured") There are enough "Questionable" ebay Sellers out there now, I would think that an "Honest" ebay seller would do his best to satisfy his customer and hope for some repeat business. |
|
Valued Member
United States
61 Posts |
I do agree there is some confusion here. I think it would have been best to ask about the coin, but I also understand the motive. It was a chance to possibly get a 1945 for less than what it was worth. However, there was a risk taken since he did list it as 1946. I think a refund is acceptable. I honestly could see it as being a mistake.
In regards to US Law:
Potentially he could be found guilty of false advertisement. However any attempt to issue a case against the seller would be futile. Since the item being sold is stated multiple places and you received that item you have no case. No where does he say that you will be receiving the item pictured. Thus there is almost no case against the seller. Plus, if you lost in court he wouldn't even have to give you the refund.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
I can't tell you how many times I've bid on an auction that I found with only a few minutes remaining until close (I search with the ending soonest option). Some I would have preferred to ask the seller a question, but time did not allow it. Those who have pointed out that the seller should have "asked first" are making an assumption that the buyer had the opportunity. In offering my opinion on this, I will stick with the facts given ... seller listed as a 1946, but pictured a 1945. Buyer received a 1946 and decided to keep it, but contacted the seller to ask why a 1945 was pictured. The seller claimed not to own a 1945. The buyer believed this was done deliberately to generate more interest and constituted ebay fraud. Given these circumstances it appears to me the seller intentionally pictured the rarer coin and delivered the more common coin. I would also be a bit miffed about this, but would proceed in a different direction. Since I received the coin I wanted I would not pursue discounts, compensations, or refunds. A legal recourse to punish the seller for perceived deception wouldn't be worth the effort and would not go forward in the legal system. Before I left feedback, I would ask the seller to clarify comments made that he/she didn't own a 1945, but a 1945 was clearly pictured in the auction. If the seller did not answer or provided a less than acceptable response, the buyer should let other EBayers know of this deception through feedback. To this point the seller has not provided an acceptable response to the buyer's questions. And finally for hhbkiddo ... step back from this for a moment and take a deep breath. This is the internet and folks sometimes take things too personally (me included). If your interest is coins/currency and want to expand your knowledge and experience, there is no better forum to do this than CCF. In a few days you will have a different perspective and things said may be water under the bridge. Just don't burn that bridge! You're welcome here anytime. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
Quote:In offering my opinion on this, I will stick with the facts given ... seller listed as a 1946, but pictured a 1945. Buyer received a 1946 and decided to keep it, but contacted the seller to ask why a 1945 was pictured. The seller claimed not to own a 1945. The buyer believed this was done deliberately to generate more interest and constituted ebay fraud. Given these circumstances it appears to me the seller intentionally pictured the rarer coin and delivered the more common coin. I would also be a bit miffed about this, but would proceed in a different direction. Since I received the coin I wanted I would not pursue discounts, compensations, or refunds. A legal recourse to punish the seller for perceived deception wouldn't be worth the effort and would not go forward in the legal system. Before I left feedback, I would ask the seller to clarify comments made that he/she didn't own a 1945, but a 1945 was clearly pictured in the auction. If the seller did not answer or provided a less than acceptable response, the buyer should let other EBayers know of this deception through feedback. To this point the seller has not provided an acceptable response to the buyer's questions. Here's the only "facts" we have....listing was for a 1946, picture was of a 1945, buyer won the auction. We don't actually know the sellers intentions, nor do we know what the buyer was bidding on. From the original post I believe the seller posted the 1945 to drive up the bidding. I also believe the buyer wanted to get the 1945 for a 1946 price. Note the portion highlighted in red. IMO, based on the first post in this thread, I don't think the OP got the coin he wanted. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Just trying to go by what the OP previously stated (all posts). He wants to keep the 46, not return it. To me that means he "wants" it and has no right to monetary compensation/discounts from the seller. I do not attempt to know his original motivation, nor should anyone else. Quote:
Fact is, it is NOT really a matter of the shipping cost. It is the seller's denial that it is not a 45 picture that is posted. It would have been a simple matter, very simple.
Fact is he said afterwards he never had a 45. That person is not telling the truth.
Yes I knew it said 46 and that is what I received. It is s really nice 46. Before I posted the first original post, I had already decided to keep the 46 and have it certified. |
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1082 Posts |
It is deceptive to post the wrong picture, to be sure, but it could well have been a mistake, except for the fact that the seller stated that he never had a '45, but the question arises, why did he have a picture of a '45 if he wasn't offering a '45 for sale anywhere?
I think he was betting that buyers would think that he made an innocent mistake and that they would think to capitalize on it to his detriment. If anything, the lot title said '46, and he could ship the '46, knowing he could argue the point later if the question arose, and fall back on the fact that the title said '46, despite the picture.
This is dishonest.
However, the buyer in such a situation doesn't have clean hands either, because they would have figured they could get a '45 at a lower price. They would be out to take advantage of the "mistake". Their worst case scenario is that they get the '46 that was advertised, despite the picture, and hopefully at a fair price.
Of course, the advantage is to the seller, in that there was the possibility that they could have unloaded a '46 at a higher price than they would have regularly gotten, because bidders might have thought they would have ended up with a '45 instead.
The seller is wrong, because he might have been looking to get unjustly enriched. The buyer is wrong, because he might have been looking to get unjustly enriched.
A question early on in the auction might have settled all doubt, and the onus is on the bidder to clear up any misunderstanding about the lot he is bidding on, otherwise he should not bid.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1248 Posts |
Well my friends,(and others) Finally, we get a discussion going based on facts, not on assumptions and personal likings. After all, there are some very fine people in this forum who do look at things in an objective way.  Objective meaning to evaluate both sides in a fair and square manner. Thank you to all who stuck with the facts. To start off this reply, I will state my position, the facts the way it was and is: 1 I noticed this seller has nice coins on this site ( int'l most watched) 2 I checked his coins and found this 1946/1947 issue and decided to bid 3 I knew, as previously stated, it was listed as a 46 but the pic was a 47. I never denied that I knew it, nor was I asked.Only assumptions were made! 4 I hoped the bidding would stick with 46 values, but one or two others also had the same Idea. OK with me, as I took that chance. I spiked the coin very high. 5 Also bought 3 other coins from the seller. 6 After the coins arrived, I noticed that the seller uses some super (for his part), lighting techniques to make the coins appear super attractive and better looking as they are. Not all of his coins show high details. When asked for other pictures, He refuses and says they are really good. He hides the flaws. I will not buy from him any more.7 The 1946, not 1945 dollar is in my opinion a MS 64 and is on the Way to ICCS to be graded. If it is a 64 (NGC for sure) I will be in the $, if not, I eat it. 8 After receiving the coins I asked the seller why he posted a picture of a 45. He refused to acknowledge it, saying he NEVER had a 1945 and he is an honest person. 9 That is a very strong statement and is open to interpretation. 10 Then, having seen the story about the 200 Franc note being misrepresented, I thought this would make a good subject to find out what the actual situation is, as I have seen deceptions like this before, either with grading or years, and every time the seller gets away with it without any consequences. 11 Little did I know, I was going to be stamped as the bad guy. 12 I know I only told you later on that I had decided to keep the coin.I did this on purpose. To see reactions... and they came. 13 My underlying issue here was foremost: What can one do NOT VIA EABAY or Paypal. Does the seller break commerce laws by purposely doing this? Does the seller break civil or consumer protection laws? IS he actually liable and responsible for his actions? 14 Where I am going here with this is to find a way to stop misleading offerings like this and to force sellers legally to be honest and not deceptive. WE have read here about so many serious cases where buyers were misled. I believe, as a minimum, a seller who does mislead should be liable for ALL costs. But they know that a buyer will only file a "not as described "complaint with ebay. The seller has NOTHING to loose, as the buyer pays ALL shipping cost. And ebay does nothing...and another negative feedback does not hurt most of them, 15 In Germany for example, the seller is responsible for ALL return cost if the item is $ 55 or more! And items can be returned for ANY reason, regulated by consumer protection laws. (commercial sellers only, power sellers) 16 NOW, finally, this forum has a lot of members. Perhaps it is time for us all to wake up and get a drive going with the press, coin magazines, our politicians to press for coin-buyers-protection laws.
( I guess, ebay would be the first to argue objections for loss of (crook)-business.Have a great day guys and girls. I am going fishing! HHB Edited by hhbkiddo
07/09/2009 1:24 pm
|
|
Valued Member
United States
61 Posts |
As I said before, you could only charge him with false advertisement, which is just a weak slap on the wrist. The best thing to do would be a public acknowledgment of all sellers like this in some big source. We are a big community, but we are not all coin collectors. However, if the ANA or some other prestige organization were to create some sort of black list it would be a tremendous break through. It isn't punishment by law, but it would certainly diminish bad sellers reputations and sales. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
There are many sellers on ebay that overgrade coins, sell fakes, use pictures that inaccurately represent the coin, send coins other than the ones posted, etc. There's no doubt that all of these practices are terrible, but they aren't all a cause for legal action. Selling fakes & "bait & switch" are both illegal, almost everything else is probably not actionable under current law. I don't like any of the ways that sellers try to scam people, even if it's not illegal it's reprehensible. That doesn't mean the buyer doesn't have responsibility for their own actions. IMO buyers should do everything in their power to look out for their own best interests BEFORE they bid. That means asking questions of the seller, or getting someone else to look at the auction, or not bidding on items that seem too good to be true. It's one thing to get scammed, & quite another to knowingly bid on a questionable auction. This thread would not be here if the seller had sent the more expensive coin. If the buyer has done everything they should have done before bidding, win the auction, & feel like they got scammed the very first thing they should do is COMMUNICATE with the seller. The way the seller responds should let you know if it was an honest mistake or a scam. Then, & only then, should the buyer do whatever they think needs to be done to recover their loss & warn others. I don't know how much weight the forum has. I doubt it's enough to change the law or ebay policy. I do know there are forum members that actively watch for fraudulent auctions & successfully have them ended. That might be the best way to combat auction fraud. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
Some questions still remain unanswered:
If you had questions about the coin why didn't you ask them ahead of time?
What proof do you have that this mis-listed item was intentional?
If you had no intention of returning the coin, why did you bother the seller by asking about a returning it?
Why bother posting this thread if you got what you expected?
No matter where you buy coins there are pitfalls. Scammers like the Coin Vault and Littleton have been around long before Internet commerce became popular. As a buyer it is important to understand how the market works and protect yourself as best you can. You can complain all you want about how this seller wronged you, but I still contend that all of your troubles could have been avoided if you had done your due diligence to begin with.
As far as petitioning the government for regulatory help goes...forget it. "Coin buyers protection laws" would likely result in an inept government entity funded by taxes levied against your numismatic purchases.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
snowman,
here are your bone honest answers ( I always am, even if it hurts, simply I do not want to remember what the lie would have been about should it ever come up)
1 I was hoping it would have been a 45. we all are guilty of seeking an advantage.
2 I had NO proof before he stated he never had a 45, and he denied ever having one.
3 I never said that I asked him about a return. I asked him for his position and what he wanted to do. He immediately said, simply return it... that is hen I suggestd it was misleading what he did.
4 read all my replies carefully and YOU will suddenly recognice WHY.. , specially my last one.
I thought this was a perfect venue to get opinions and perhaps experiences.. and others can learn from it.
But, trust me...I did not expect such, ( in one case outright rude an inappropriate responses.
I learned my lesson and I will live by the consequences.
HHB
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
Here's my opinion, ebay is a crapshoot. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. I have had plenty of cases where the "title" did not match the coin and I assumed I would get the shown coin. This is a good strategy for me because I buy nothing that is of a high value. As the basis of this whole thread goes, I have usually gotten the item shown. However, since I only buy cheaper stuff, even when it didn't, I didn't care too much. However, if the auction description does not say something like "the item you receive will be similar to this pictured item, but you will get the 1946" then it really is fraud. Stock photos are not fraud, failing to tell the buyer they are stock photos seems like it is. |
|
Forum Dad
 United States
24147 Posts |
Quote:
2 I had NO proof before he stated he never had a 45, and he denied ever having one. I have about 30,000 pictures of coins that I've never been in the same room with on my computer. It's easy to upload a wrong photo. Just because he had a picture, doesn't mean he ever had the coin. You're mad at others here for assuming, but you are too... Just sayin'.....  |
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
Ok Bobby 131313,
again you are one of these assuming something:
I never said I am mad about it.
you did not read everything and thought about it. otherwise you would have noticed that I described a case and asked for input and opinions. Remember, first I did not disclose that I had already decided to keep the coin. It was not an issue anymore for mewhen I posted this first. at the beginning I did not place any demands, ideas etc, just listed a case and asked for input etc. Nobody needed to take sides, but most did and by doing so put themselves in to either his or my shoes, and thought very little about the other.Simply just defending one side. It did not matter about the money to me at this point. I can easily afford it. All that mattered is HOW to prevent it in the future and help others to avoid such issues. very few of you actually considered this. It is full with I would, you should, I would have, you should have. Few asked DID YOU? DID HE?
I state, based on the reactions from the members, that most replies were immediately while reading it, biased by assuming one side's position or defense.
It appears , judging on some inputs, that a few replies were taken to the EXTREME.
AND, the seller, at the time of his listing, did ONLY sell canadian Silver dollars ( about 20 or so), nothing else.Fat chance of making a mistake....
The 45 picture had all the SAME lighting method,Properties and characteristics as his other pictures. Similar pictures still are in his present listings, all the same.
A mistaken picture? NOT in my opinion. AND, if so, why did he deny ever having a 45? that is the latest time he should have admitted his "mistake" and corrected it.
he will most likely get 3 positive feedbacks (3 others I have bought with no problems) and one negative because he was lying, saying he NEVER had a 45. And I will say it in the comments. However, I have not decided this yet.
HHB
PS: need to point out that English is not my mother tounge and perhaps sometimes I use inappropriateor wrong words or fraze my sentences not exactly as it should be.
Edited by hhbkiddo
07/10/2009 11:22 am
|
| |
Replies: 39 / Views: 4,018 |
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us | Advertise Here | Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
|
| Coin Community Forum |
© 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums |
| It took 1.46 seconds to rattle this change. |
 |
|
First Page
Posted 07/08/2009 8:34 pm
