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 Replies: 17 / Views: 3,296 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2520 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3098 Posts |
Hey, who knows! The dollar ain't what it used to be... wow just 7 years ago?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4867 Posts |
I was just reading about this in the new issue of Coin World. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
528 Posts |
who ever owns the one right now is going to be disappointed. They will no longer own the ONE.
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Moderator
 United States
16677 Posts |
It's about time.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I still don't think they will get them back this is what it says Quote:
A judge in Philadelphia has ruled that the federal government must return 10 extremely rare gold coins to the family of a late Center City jeweler or outline its case for keeping them in a forfeiture filing. and I am sure they will do so. I am sure the Judge doesn't know all the facts about the 1 coin that was made legal as far as how it came to be legal and why. These coins were never declaired legal to take out of the country nor legal to be in public hands like the Farouk coin was. This will be something the Govt fights to the end probably until the family either runs out of money or until they die off and other family members just lose interest. There has been collectors on both sides of the fence on this one and even though the collector in me would love for these to be available to collectors the law is the law and these were always considered stolen property and Govt property so they never really belonged to the family who found them nor the person who had them in the first place. It would be like someone coming in your house and stealing all your coins and selling them to your next door neighbor and you seeing them and saying hey those are mine and him saying no they are mine because I bought them from so and so (who stole them from you) in the eyes of the law they were never owned by so and so they were owned by you so they should go back to you, same thing here, the Govt never released these for circulation so they should never have left the mint so no matter how the people who acquired them got them they still belong to the Govt |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2520 Posts |
Quote:http://www.philly.com/philly/news/52246492.htmlLooks like the government just might have to return them! Yeah, I read the article too! That's why I said they might have to return them. There's too much money involved for them to give up so easily. |
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Moderator
United States
187702 Posts |
These are just my opinions, for what they are worth.
I think this one will take a while to shake out. With the multi-million dollar potential value of these coins, I am sure there will be plenty of big-gun lawyers willing to work this on contingency.
The person that owns "the one" now should be comfortable knowing that their coin will always be the first. I am sure it is well documented as such and will always have its own value attached to it.
I really see no reason why, given the bidding on the first one, that these ten would not fetch several million dollars each.
I agree with Bryan's analogy in principle, because profiting from theft is just wrong. But the government still needs to prove in a court of law that the coins were stolen. I am not saying how it happened, because I do not know. I am a firm believer of "innocent until proven guilty" so I have to assume, for the time being, that Israel Switt attained them in a honest transaction.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts |
Quote:
so I have to assume, for the time being, that Israel Switt attained them in a honest transaction. But, they were never released by the gov. With that said, How did he come into possession of them legally? And, what is the statue of limitations on stolen goods, if that is what they are? Edited by chris12018
08/05/2009 07:17 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
How did he come into possession of them legally? It has been documented that Israel Switt was buddy buddy with the Mint Cashier at the time, that is how he "allegedly" unlawfully obtained them. Quote:
what is the statue of limitations on stolen goods, if that is what they are? The statute of limitations only applies to criminal charges and they expired in the 40s. However, there is no statute of limitations for the return of stolen property. One only needs to look at the eastern European Jews who had art and antiques stolen by the Nazis. The children of those Holocaust victims/survivors have been recovering their parent's property for a couple decades now. Obviously the Nazis that stole the items are long gone but that does not negate original ownership. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Switt at the time knew he was partaking in illegal actions (which is the only reason to do it the way he did) when he swapped out other dated coins for the 1933 coins in the bags. Just because he had a friend at the mint who had access to the coins didn't give him the right to swap out a legal coin for one that was illegal and wasn't supposed to be sold/traded/given away to anyone. It may be a little different (but I still don't think so) if he had went there and paid cash for them and bought them but he tried to deceive the owners of the coins by replacing them with a different coin all together. it would be like someone taking your 1955/55 Lincoln Cent and replacing it with a 1909 Lincoln Cent, sure you still have the same face value coin but its not the one you expected to be there. Switt was trying to defraud the Govt by swapping the coins out and hoping they didn't notice when they went to melt them down (and they didn't) which still doesn't make the coins he has his just because he swapped them out with a coin of the same face value. I have to be honest here, I am torn between a collector that hates to see a coin unavailable and lost forever and between the person that feels whats right is right no matter what happens or how much I would hate the outcome of whats right. And stolen property is stolen property and always belongs to the owner that didn't give up the ownership right (which is why I said above if he had paid for them at the mint window for face value and walked out with them it may be different because it would be a mint employee mistake that sold him the coins even if he knew it wasn't supposed to be sold they still sold it to him legally) no matter what they were going to do with it. Another analogy is if you were going to burn your house down it doesn't give someone else the right to move in to that house and claim it as their own just because you were going to destroy it anyway and they don't have a house of their own |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
Just because he had a friend at the mint who had access to the coins didn't give him the right to swap out a legal coin for one that was illegal and wasn't supposed to be sold/traded/given away to anyone.  More than likely, the cashier had his palm greased by Switt to do the swap. In hindsight, he would have been better off if he had purchased 25 or so 1927-D Double Eagles. Those coins were readily available at the cashier window until the 1933 Recall but it seems that hardly anyone purchased them as only 10-12 examples are known to exist and any example going to auction today brings in excess of $1 million. Since the 1927-Ds were lawfully sold at the window, Switt and his heirs would not have had all of the legal problems they have brought upon themselves throughout the years and they still would have had a pile of significantly valuable coins. No, that scenario would not work since Switt was in Philly and would not have had access to Denver coins Quote:
I am torn between a collector that hates to see a coin unavailable and lost forever and between the person that feels whats right is right no matter what happens or how much I would hate the outcome of whats right. It would be a tragedy if the Mint melted them like all other previously seized 1933s but I doubt that will happen this time around. The best situation would be that the 10 survivors are distributed to various numismatic museums- ANA, ANS, Smithsonian, and the Fed banks that have money exhibits. Quote:
But the government still needs to prove in a court of law that the coins were stolen. According to this legal research article, it is plainly obvious that the coins never made it out of the Mint legally. The last shipment of gold coins left the Philadelphia Mint on March 6, 1933. No 1933 Double Eagles were in that $12.25 million shipment; none had yet been minted. But despite the gold embargo, engraving work at the Mint continued. Ten days after the last gold shipment, workers at the Philadelphia Mint began striking 1933 Double Eagles. In three series of mintings between March 15 and May 19, a total of 445,500 1933 Double Eagles were struck.
Most of them never left the Philadelphia Mint. All but 466 coins were sealed into a Mint vault in June 1933. The others were sent out, some to Washington, D.C., and some to New York, for standard testing. Twenty-nine coins were destroyed in the testing. The rest were returned to the Philadelphia Mint, where they were locked into a cashier's safe that could only be opened with two keys held by the Mint cashier. Two coins were eventually sent to the Smithsonian to be added to the museum's complete collection of American coins. All of the other existing 1933 Double Eagles -- the 445,034 coins held in the Mint vault and the 435 in the cashier's vault -- were, according to the records of the Philadelphia Mint, melted down between February 6 and March 18, 1937.
But on February 15, 1937, a Philadelphia jeweler named Israel Switt sold a 1933 Double Eagle to Philadelphia coin dealer James MacAllister.
Edited by biokemist6
08/06/2009 11:21 pm
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Moderator
United States
187702 Posts |
Quote:The best situation would be that the 10 survivors are distributed to various numismatic museums- ANA, ANS, Smithsonian, and the Fed banks that have money exhibits. I agree! I think the best value to us, the people, is to share these historical treasures with the people in one or all of the above mentioned venues. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I went to see these 10 coins at the ANA coin show in Charlotte a few years ago and have to admit it was a site, to see coins that was not supposed to be in existence any longer all together in one place and it brought allot of media attention to the hobby as well. The one thing I do find hard to believe is these were not known until suddenly one was sold for 7+ million dollars then all of a sudden they just happen to find these in a safe deposit box. I believe everyone in the family knew these existed because if you have something this significant to history or to the hobby you atleast let your family know what they are and where they can find them. I am sure someone in each generation has heard that these existed in the family in some form or another |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
If the government files the forfieture filing paperwork, it in essence outs the government with having to prove the coins were stolen instead of the family having to prove they were obtained legally
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
well I don't think that would be very hard to prove at all since the special circumstances surrounding these coins with all the experts and media coverage of these allot of people know the facts on how they were acquired and that they have never been legal to own
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Replies: 17 / Views: 3,296 |
Posted 08/03/2009 9:33 pm
