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Morgan Silver Dollar

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New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this coin has not been kept in any special way, I kept it in a bag of old coins from holidays! hence scratches! but it has never been cleaned either. (well not in the 40 years I have had it)
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Moe145's Avatar
United States
8904 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Moe145 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
(Some information about the 1921 Chapman Proof Morgan dollar I posted earlier (and on the Introduction page for Gee)

Sold for: $57,500.00 (includes BP )
Bid Source: Internet
Ended: May 9, 2007



Description
Gem Chapman Proof 1921 Morgan dollar


1921 $1 Chapman PR65 NGC. This is the finest example of the Chapman proofs that Heritage has ever had the privilege to offer, the runners-up being a couple of PR64 pieces in the last few years. This is very likely the rarest proof Morgan dollar (a term that acquires special meaning in conjunction with this issue, as we will soon see), particularly since many expert numismatists, Q. David Bowers among them, exclude the controversial Zerbe proofs as merely prooflike dollars struck from hairlined dies.


The story of the creation of the Chapman proofs bears repeating here (courtesy of Bowers Silver Dollar Encyclopedia:




In 1921, [coin dealer] Henry Chapman went to the Mint and had some mirror-surface Proofs struck to his order. This was done clandestinely by or for George T. Morgan, chief engraver, who had a little "rare coin business" going on the side. Walter H. Breen reported that he has seen "the bill of sale for 10 Proofs, Morgan to Chapman." The original production of mirror-type Proofs must have been very small, perhaps just 15 in all (10 to Chapman, five to Ambrose Swasey). They were not officially sold by the mint, nor were any proof sets made that year.

Further down in Bowers' discussion he quotes Walter Breen concerning diagnostics of the Chapman proofs or, as Bowers calls them, "mirror-surface Proofs":

On the five Proofs Engraver Morgan sold to Ambrose Swasey, 6/4/21, and
Quote:
the 10 Morgan sold to Henry Chapman a week later, a short line points from rim to third star, and ends about 1 mm away; two die polish lines up from rim to first 1; hollow around Morgan's initial M (from overpolished die). Reverse dash between right star and wreath, touching neither; another, fainter, slanting up from left upright of I(CA); a third between S(T) and I of [IN], touching neither; faint scattered die striations around UN AM RICA.
The present example shows only slight contrast between the fields and devices, more so on the reverse than on the obverse, and it is untoned. The "short die line" appears at the rim a couple of dentils up from star 3, and points diagonally downward toward that star. The first of the "two die polish lines" starts four dentils left of the left side of the first 1 and runs diagonally upward through the top serif, while the second die line starts one dentil to the left and intersects the bottom of the 1. The "hollow" around Morgan's initial is clear. On the reverse the "dash between right star and wreath, touching neither" is plain; and the list goes on. The only die marker the present cataloger could not detect is the faint dash slanting from the top of I(CA).
This coin is a must-have for the dedicated Morgan dollar proof specialist, especially those who already own the 1895 Morgan proof and the 1878 7 Tail Feathers proofs. This is undoubtedly a fleeting opportunity: only four pieces have been graded finer at both services, and it is all but certain that those coins lie in strong hands. Expect fierce bidding, and bring the boldest offer.
Edited by Moe145
07/23/2009 6:55 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
can anyone say this is, or is not a morgan proof, it has 16 berries, slightly indented "m" on the neck line, and as far as I can see is pretty much identical to the "chapman proof" pictures posted here by MOE145. If it is then someone who appreciates it should have it, if not then it goes back in the "foreign coin bag" this all I want to know and where I live nobody seems to know.
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i can forward the full photos to anyone who wants them to see the coin in greater detail by email if required to fully advise me, I have had the coin for 40 years as I said before, and was given to me by an american aunt, if it is a normal silver dollar then thats ok, but if it happens to be a special one, then I would like to know. thanks for your time replying and comments
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sorry previous post should have read "this is, or is not a Chapman proof", not Morgan proof
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
reading previous posts a couple of terms have cropped up, "abrasively cleaned XF" and "wizzed", can anyone tell me what these terms mean please?
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2009  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i was studying the pictures posted by MOE145 and on the "tails" side, "eagle" side there is a little dot between the wreath and the wings of the eagle, it looks about the middle point between the wings and the point ehere the last berry joins the wreath, almost horizontal from the gap in the bottom of the "R" in "AMERICA" my coin has a small impression there too. it is 12.30 am here in England so I am going to bed now, I will check tomorrow if there is any news one way or the other, thanking everyone for their help .. gee..
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  02:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have checked up on "wizzed" and I can state 100% this coin has never been cleaned in any way in the 40 years I have had it,but it does have a very good lustre to it compared to a couple of old sixpences I have in the same bag, in fact the oldest sixpence I have is 1298 and is quite worn and dull, and bears no resemblence to the quality of the dollar, you can actually see your reflection in the dollar.
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xshift's Avatar
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  02:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Gee,

If you could post larger pictures, it would help. Make an account online at a place like photobucket ( http://www.photobucket.com ), and upload them there. When you hover over the uploaded picture with your mouse, it will give you links to add to forums or email. The one you want to reply back with is the last in that list, the one that starts with "[ img ]". You also may want to get some close-ups of the particular areas on the coin where the markers are - just make sure to stay in focus

And welcome to the forums!
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xshift's Avatar
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  02:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Moe, that's great info on the Chapman proofs, thanks for sharing it
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
we have a Moderator on this forum that is pretty much the expert I always go to with any 1921 Morgan question. He used to exclusively collect 1921 Varieties and knows as much as anyone I know about 1921 Morgans (and got pretty dern good with 1878 Morgans as well) and I will bring this topic to his attention to see what he thinks about this coin (besides it being harshly cleaned because that we all can tell)

Quote:
his coin has never been cleaned in any way in the 40 years I have had it

those scratches look pretty fresh to be in storage(or a bag) for 40 years, it looks as if someone took a brillo pad to it trying to "clean" it up recently.

Quote:
it does have a very good lustre

I think you are confusing the scratches with Luster and thats now what is seen on the coin pictured

Quote:
f it is a normal silver dollar then thats ok, but if it happens to be a special one, then I would like to know.

well it is specuial to you since it has been given to you from a family member no matter what the outcome of the variety is and that is apparent of you keeping it for 40 years
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ratman4762's Avatar
United States
2520 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratman4762 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
have checked up on "wizzed" and I can state 100% this coin has never been cleaned in any way in the 40 years I have had it,
That may very well be true...nobody here will dispute that. But.....you are talking about an 88 year old coin that you have only had for 40 years of its existance. Non coin collectors wouldn't think twice about scrubbing or polishing a coin to make it appear shiny, especially if it were going to be given to somebody special to them. Think about how many people could have had possession of that Morgan in the 48 years before you received it.
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  05:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Exactly, the point I am making is that in the 40 years I have had the coin it has never been touched with any cleaning or abrasive substances, but before that I have no idea, the coin when looked at in natural light with the naked eye does look quite "bright" but darkening slightly towards the outer rim and around the letters.
Has the number of reeds have anything to do with it? I have counted in photos of Morgans 157 and 151, the photo of the Chapman posted by Moe has 148 as does mine, again I have no idea as I know nothing about coins.
the earlier post with reference to the sixpence should have the date as 1928 not 1298.
if this is in any way a special coin I would like to know, but if it is not and it is a "standard" Morgan then I am still happy with it because I do think it is a magnificent coin to look at.
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have uploaded better photos in the hope someone can say yes or no as to it being a Chapman
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/...Coin1003.jpg
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/...Coin1005.jpg
New Member
United Kingdom
29 Posts
 Posted 07/24/2009  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i have checked the photos and they are still low quality
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