Another 8 Reales

Litotes, your coin is a Spanish Colonial 8 Reales minted in Mexico City. Eight Reales and the smaller fractionals (4 reales, 2 reales, 1 real) were the primary circulating coin in all the new world in their day. They were also as mentioned by Richardschornak in his post above the major international unit of trade in transactions between the European Powers along with their colonies and the Orient, where silver was actually the preferred metal of commerce. Our silver dollar was based on this coin (and where the expressions "2 bits", "4 bits" come from referring to the smaller coins) and spanish milled silver circulated as legal tender in the United States until coinage laws changed in 1857. Your coin has a wonderful history and there are many reference books that can provide you with additional information.

Litotes First welcome to the wonderful but confusing world of the 8 REales.

The Spanish Colonial 8Rs were widely circulated as a Trade Coin World wide and in the US they formed about 90% of the circulating hard (silver) currency in the period before the Civil War. The US had no native silver supplies until they took the western states from Mexico, so all US silver was imported largely from Mexico in the form of 8Rs. Nearly all US silver coins were made from melted Spanish American issues.

The 1805 8R is of particular interest to me because in 1959 I bought one in lusterous AU for $3. It was a counterfeit struck in full weight silver and made in the Boston, Mass area for trading purposes about 1893. It was one of my earliest counterfeits (I was 12) and I bought it from an older man who was a good friend of my uncles. (This fellow was in his late 60s or so then - but now that I am over 60 I don't see that as so old). Anyway, this fellow told me that he had been associated with a forgery ring that had operated in SE Mass and RI for many years before 1940. He claimed that this same group made the 1805 he sold me and that you could always identify their work by the "funny smile". He admitted only that he was involved with making 8Rs. He never indicated that they made any US coins (but I was always suspicious because of his ties to organized crime).

Personally I never could pick one out by the smile but I learned to spot the general type by the fact they used an incorrect method of applying the edge design. They used only one edge die (with the colonial pattern) and applied the die to the edge of the coin TWICE to create the overlap effect. On the side opposite the die they had a bar with diagonal griping ridges. These gripping ridges left a mark ON TOP of the already applied edge but the grip mark was obliterated on the half of the edge applied second.

So I look for a coin with half of the edge marked with diagonal cuts at about 45 degrees. These caoins will also have the overlaps from the second half applied ON TOP of the first half at BOTH ends. It takes some thought about the physics of the process but once you get it - it becomes easy to spot.

I have no reason to suspect your 1805 is not legitimate. Most of the Boston forgeries also have surface amomalies like parallel shallow surface cracks and die rust.

For some reason 1805 was also a popular date with European button makers. Buttons from 1R to 8R in size dated 1805 were made in brass as uniform buttons - most use a Lima Peru reverse but Mexico also appears.

So the date 1805 is common as a real coin, common as a forgery and common as a button, but they are all interesting. Have fun learning about this old work horse coin.

Archraz I suspect the market for the 8Rs did dry up well before the time that mainland China demonetized the "Bustman" 8R in 1933. I believe the bulk of the 8Rs made by this particular group were made in the 1890s but have no firm documentation on that either. The suspension of the Japanese silver trade in 1897 (with the use of the Gin counterstamp to keep silver trade coins from returning to Japan) would have likely caused a major reduction in the market for Bustman coins in mainland China as well.

The dies likely were retained and may still exist, but I have no proof of any recent activity. Since 8Rs were not illegal to produce the dies for such coins would not violate US laws. I really doubt that they kept the US dies around for long because those would be illegal to possess. There are a few stories about 8R dies floating around as late as the 1980s. One New Bedford coin dealer I knew suspected that the dies were used in the 1940s and 1950s for very small production runs.

I do know from several other sources (as early as an 1894 newspaper article) that the Boston group had turned to making US dollar coins before the turn of the century. In fact by the late 1890s, I suspect that forgery of US dollars was actually their primary focus. The old fellow I spoke with was just covering his tracks with me I guess. You have to remember that I was just a 12 year old kid when I had this discussion and he may have been concerned who I would tell. It was illegal to make Morgan dollars but not illegal to make 8Rs for export. When I spoke to the old gent he had a box of 1805 8Rs all AU-MS. I saw at least 50 of them in his possession at that time. Perhaps he still had the dies and the one I own was made in 1958, but he told me it was from the 1890s.

I suspect but have never been able to prove my uncle's involvement with this same forgery ring. He knew this old fellow (my uncle was 20 years older than my mother and was about 60 when he told me about the older fellow). My uncle was a man of many talents. He was an engraver by "trade". He made dies for tokens or so he told me. The whole family knew that he skirted the law and we also knew he never had a "real job". He was always "self employed" but drove a brand new Cadillac and wore very expensive suits. He had a big house full of rare antiques and sent his kids to expensive private schools. During prohibition when he was in his 20s, he was a bootlegger. He operated a trucking business that took broken empty wooden boxes from Rhode Island to Canada for "repair". WHAT A LUCRATIVE BUSINESS That was a tongue in cheek reference to his smuggling operation but one that my grandmother accepted without question.

At one point he had a tool and die shop in the back room of a pizza parlor he ran in East Providence. The combination never raised questions for my family but even as a kid it made me wonder. I do know he sold guns out of the trunk of his car (I saw several when I was in high school. One day he offered to sell me a working fully automatic Thompson sub machine gun for $100.) His son-in-law was involved in drug smuggling out of southern RI using fishing boats in the 1970s. So I know my uncle had clear ties to people operating outside the law, but he was never arrested as far as I know.

My mother always told me "never buy anything from your uncle" and I heeded her advice. He was always selling something but never coins. He died before I could actually talk to him man-to-man about counterfeiting. I really wish I had been a bit older, I might have learned more about die making.