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US Gold Coin Counterfeit Detector From 1855

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Pillar of the Community
RFB's Avatar
United States
532 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  01:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add RFB to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
http://cgi.ebay.com/J-Allender-gold...le_W0QQitemZ170390542711QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ac115977


Not every day you see them for sale. The more I look at it the more I want it. Priced a little on the higher side but it looks in good shape.
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ratman4762's Avatar
United States
2520 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  01:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratman4762 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
interesting!
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  02:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
G'day, interesting piece.
I have a similar device for use with British Sovereigns.
I have seen one for Guineas.
I have seen one for two coins: sov & half-sov.
I have never seen one capable of use with six different denominationd.
I'm impressed with this unit.
I think I paid $50 for my scale, in a nice little timber box.
Very collectible, if you ask me.
Peter in Oz
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DL20K's Avatar
Poland
3201 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  04:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DL20K to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How did this work?
Bedrock of the Community
Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  07:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How did this work?

I don't think it is a counterfeit detector as much as its a filed edge detector. People used to file the edges off of gold and silver coins (which makes it has less precious metal and makes it not worth face value) and save the shavings from allot of coins until they had enough to sell to a scrap metal dealer
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  08:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the detector enables one to check weight, diameter, & thickness.
This would reveal filed or clipped coins;
but it would also reveal coins made of non-gold: they would be either under-weight, or over-thick.
Very clever, and as I've said, I've never seen a single device that could accommodate so many denominations.
Peter in Oz
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  09:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
not sure I understand how that thing would weigh a coin but if you say so
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"not sure I understand how that thing would weigh a coin ..."
- it's a balance: see the fulcrum, between the two larger holders on the left of the ebay picture, and the four smaller on the right.
if it tips up or down, the weight's wrong.
The more I look at this, the cleverer it seems to me.
Look at ebay item 290355088562: the picture here is clearer.
But the American one, instead of having a dumb weight, uses the configuration of the other components as the counterbalance. The designer must have done a lot of trial & error to get that right ... times six.
Item 110442447007 is a scale, but I can't see anything to measure diameter nor thickness.
Peter in Oz
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, that is an impressive little piece of 19th century engineering Quite ingenious how all of the holes are perfectly positioned to be counterbalanced for genuine coins.
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snowman's Avatar
United States
1840 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is an interesting piece of history. I wonder what the tolerances are.
Valued Member
Brannenworks's Avatar
United States
106 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brannenworks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The distances from the center of the coin to the fulcrum are inversely proportional to the denomination (and therefore weight) as would be expected for a balance. That is, the $20 is half the distance of the $10, while the $5, $3, $2.5, and $1 are distanced in the proportion 1 to 5/3 to 2 to 5, respectively.

It's not obvious to me how to use it. I guess you could balance it with a known good $20 piece and then use it to measure other $20s or $10s.

The photos aren't very good as far as showing the bottom side of it.

[edit: Ah, there's a missing counterweight. This would be a weight you put in the $1 position in order to check $10 and $20 gold pieces. Without that weight, the balance would be set for $5, $3, $2.5 and $1 pieces. The weight of the counterweight would be something around 6 to 7 $1 gold pieces, so it must have been a fairly thick brass cylinder with the diameter of the $1 coin. ]
Edited by Brannenworks
10/09/2009 5:40 pm
Valued Member
United States
69 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenacious to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quote: "Ah, there's a missing counterweight."

No, there's no weights used. The weight of the arm on the opposite side of the scale is the weight. That's the genius of it.

For example, if you put a $20 gold coin in the $20 spot on the left, the weight of the arm on the right, on the other side of the fulcrum, will balance it out.

My hat is off to J. Allender!
Pillar of the Community
Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Biokemist & Tenacious are "on the money".

Brannenweorks: "It's not obvious to me how to use it. I guess you could balance it with a known good $20 piece and then use it to measure other $20s ..."
- Perhaps I ought to clarify - this device doesn't tell you the weight of a coin, as many other scales do, in terms like "7.98 grams". It is a pre-set scale: it only tells you "right or wrong". If you put a genuine $5 coin in the $20 or $10 positions, it will show up as "wrong", but if you put the same $5 coin in the $5 position, it will show as "correct".

The genius and beauty of this device is the precise placement of the six positions, and the construction of the whole beam so that each coin is balanced by the rest of the structure.

Peter in Oz
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16677 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2009  10:19 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting piece indeed. Just goes to show you that unscrupulous behavior has always been around.
swcoin.ecrater.com
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Brannenworks's Avatar
United States
106 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2009  12:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Brannenworks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nah, my guess was right on the money. Here's instructions on how to use the scale:

"You need a small counter weight which fit in the $1 slot. This weight is needed to weigh the 10 and 20 $ coin!
This hard to find weight is often lost, so also by this scale ;-/
http://www.scales-and-weights.com/s...allender.htm

Hey Peter, I'll be visiting Oz soon, just bought tickets. I'm giving a paper on Feynman's path integral, spin, and the generation structure of the quarks and leptons at the Foundations and Frontiers of Physics conference in Perth, Australia in late November.
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2009  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brannenweorks: Perth is probably the most isolated city in the world, but very pretty.
Mild climate, shouldn't be too hot in Nov. Great time to visit some of their beaches.
Possible distractions for you: explore the River; go to Fremantle; or take a couple of days to get out of town - Margaret River, if you're a wine-buff, ...
or the Timber Country, if you like leaning back and staring at extremely tall trees.
Test Cricket comes to Perth on 16th dec.
Peter in Darwin, Oz
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