1876 8 Reales? - Grade, Value, Etc...pics

I found that it's supposed to be silver...but it looks VERY copper...and I hear that some times silver coins can look copper...but this one gets me...

Contemporary counterfeits have a novelty value, so they are worth something.

Whether this one is worth $14 is up to you.

Yep, that one is counterfeit 2 Reales, but probably a contemporary counterfeit. Often counterfeits were made with impact-transfer dies and were composed of copper. In order to pass these fakes off, the counterfeiters would put a slight bit of silver on the outside, or even just paint them a silver color. I actually have one the is very similar to the one in question, but it is in much better condition. This one you are showing certainly is not worth $14.

harrison2 That is a contemporary circulating counterfeit typical of the later Republican era. I know the type very well because I have seen dozens of similar types. They were mostly impact transfer as Archraz mentioned. But in this specific case, the coin was made with engraved fantasy dies. The details on the dies are significantly different from the originals that date. This places it in a better than average category.

Initially, I felt you had a common variety 1876 Go with the crowded 76. But I have checked the picture against all of my coins of this date and I do not find an exact match. Very close but no die match.

How much are these worth?

There was a large hoard of counterfeit cores striped of their silver that was found in Mexico on the site of a former silver reclaimation facility operated by the government of Mexico until about 1910. The group responsible for the discovery is still rather secretive about the find because the location may be on Government owned land. I have never been able to pin down a location and most stories are NOT firsthand. When pressed the stories become more vague. From what I have pieced together, the discovery included 1000s of coins from 1/2R to 8R and decimals from 5c to Peso. They were found in containers buried in a dump site. The latest date that I have seen attributed to this hoard is 1909. Some early republican coins have been included in groups however, the condition of those coins never matches the later dates. I have yet to see a coin dated in the 1840s that can be safely attributed to the hoard. I have been buying coins from this hoard for years and I have come to recognize what they look like by material - condition - and design.

In my opinion the vast majority of these were local Mexican products produced by numerous facilities. However, within the hoard are others (mostly brass) which use French letter fonts and are likely European imports. Very few coins have any of the original surface intact. Some show evidence of surface filing to display the details and remove high point corrosion.

Initially coins from the hoard were bringing $1 to $3 each. But recently the scarcer varieties run up to $20 each. Your coin is unclear as to date and assayer so it is not as attractive as most even to specialists. If I saw it on ebay I would not bid much over $5 and that is only because it is a new type for me.

harrison2 - You are right about the coin dealer. He most likely does not know and does not care either. Most coin dealers as well as most collectors have little appreciation for the history surrounding the contemporary circulating counterfeits. Accumulating a collection of this sort is more a labor of love than an investment strategy. I am fascinated by the coins themselves because each has a story to tell. I try to discover that story and then to link counterfeit coins one to another. The major questions to ask about a forgery (in no particular order) are: How was the coin made? When was it made? What was it made from? What was the original intent of manufacture? These 4 questions may have unique answers for each case of forgery - but NOT for mint made coins. Mints use standard procedures when making coins and knowing how they do it is one way to discover a forgery. But a counterfeit is a wide open subject and you need to "detect" the answers from the coin itself. That is most of the fun for people like me.

But back to your questions.

There are forgeries of the 1920-1940 era pesos, however, they are not overly common and they are usually easily recognized. Nearly all I have seen are electroplated base metal struck from simple transfer dies. Quality of the image is not great and they show a loss of fine detail. There are also the odd few made by casting in pot metal but like their US counterparts they have virtually no market interest and they are not worthy of mention. They are usually awful looking - grainy and off color. They often have a greasy feel due to the presence of zinc in the alloy.

To spot an electroplated base metal copy all you usually need is a decent scale. They will be underweight by a factor of 1/10th or more if they maintain the standard dimensions. That is a simple fact based on the variation in density of the metal. Silver is heavy and dense SG above 10 while most base metals are under 9. Some forgers thicken their base metal coins or enlarge the diameter to make them heavier so you do need to be familiar with the thickness and size of an original. I own micrometers for measuring BUT after some time doing this you can tell quickly by the FEEL. Stacking a suspect with a group of originals is a simple test that has been done by bankers for years.

Electroplating deposits a VERY THIN film of PURE silver on the surface of the coin. Because pure silver is a different color (darker)than alloyed silver you can spot many MS grade electroplated coins by the color alone. So when looking at a 1925 Peso for example you are looking at 720 fine silver alloyed with copper. It will be a different color than 999 fine silver lighter but not yellow. The "yellow" cast starts to become a problem for low grade silver coins in the 100 to 400 range (for example UK coins of the 1930s). They also tarnish to a darker color which is less appealing to the eye than coin silver.

Electroplates also wear off FAST. That may be why there are so few around today. Once the fraud is spotted they were thrown out as worthless.

If your dealer has a 1920 Caballito I for one would love to see it. The Caballito is a coin rarely seen as a contemporary copy. It is my belief that it was simply too UNKNOWN to be a forgery target for circulation. The series lasted 4 years (1910 to 1914) and production was interrupted by the Civil War. Originals of this coin were hoarded, melted and exported for the silver content during the War so there are fewer than normal survivors. Even after the war, the Peso was devalued making the old "Heavy Pesos" a target for melting for their silver content. NO one would spend them at face value. By 1915 they had effectively ceased circulating at face value. Forgers making coins for circulation target COMMON coins the kind people are so familiar with that they don't even really look at them. For this reason forgery usually lags behind for a period of years before targeting a new design. A scarcer short term design like the Caballito was not attractive as a target because the person receiving it might study it more because it was NOT NORMAL. It was too easily spotted under those conditions. However, that scarcity makes the Caballito a prime target for Numismatic forgery. There are several Chinese copies of this coin on the market and the numbers are growing. You need to exercise caution when dealing with this series to avoid MODERN Junk fakes. These will be closer to the right weight and some are even struck in silver. Remember if there is $20 of silver in a coin that brings $100 it is still a big profit margin for the forger. Of course a 10 cent base metal copy has a larger margin but they are harder to sell when the target population is a coin collector.

One final comment - check the date of the Caballito your dealer has - 1912 perhaps but 1920 is a Fantasy.

I agree with jfransch. You are quite the expert, swamperbob.

harrison2- sure. Let's have a look. I must admit that I am rather fond of that type of peso as well.