Want To Learn About Coins Of The 19th Century China Trade

Brian Mc- Ah, this is probably my favorite numismatic topic.

First of all, yes this is a rather large topic, but luckily there are many works out there which discuss this. One that I am presently reading, and discusses this topic in depth, is Eduard Kann's "The Currencies of China." This book, which was originally published in 1927 has been reprinted a few times, and the 1974 reprint is not that difficult to find.(In fact, I got my copy on Amazon for very little money).

Regarding Trade dollars, they were in fact intended to circulate in China alongside the old Spanish 8, but you must keep in mind that at first both the British and the US Trade dollar were not highly thought of at first since the 8 was preferred and even at times brought a premium above face. Later, when Spanish colonial 8's were harder to find due to prolonged use and hoarding, the British and US Trade dollars really had to compete with Mexican Cap & Ray 8's. While all 3 circulated alongside one another in the late 19th century, outside of Hong Kong and a few areas in South East Asia, the Mexican 8 still was preferred. This trend largely continued through the first few decades of the 20th century as well. This was one of the reasons why the US stopped making Trade dollars for circulation after only 5 years, and why the British stopped making them after 1930. By the 1930s China had its own dollar coins and any remaining circulating foreign coins were the old, trustworthy Mexican 8's.

Regarding books on chopmarks, I know that there are a few good websites on the subject, but I am not certain as to any recent publish works. If anyone knows of any, I would be very happy to hear.

I just did a google search for Kann's book. The only copy I found available was of a 1927 edition ($650+)

I'll try to get a copy through the local university library.

A quick google search also shows that Eduard Kann must have been a pretty interesting guy. He was employed by the Chinese treasury?

Brian Mc- I'm glad to help regarding the reference.

Yes, it is quite common to see chops on US and British Trade dollars, but most of those chops were probably from areas of South East Asia and some of the island nations to the south. It can be quite difficult to identify certain marks since many were just punches that may have had little meaning other than to merely signify that the coins was believed to be legitimate by a certain dealer. Sometimes you will see punch marks that are merely a circle or star shape. These were used to determine whether the coin was real of if it is a copper fake that had a bit of silver plating on the outside.

Regarding Shroff Marks, I must admit that I am not entirely familiar with them. One thing that I do know is that in India from the early medieval period until the late 19th century there was little counterstamping and circulating of foreign coinage. According to every reliable source that I have read on the subject (Namely K. N. Chaudhuri's "The Trading World of Asia and the English East India Company' and John F. Richards' "The Imperial Monetary System of Mughal India") coins were constantly being minted and remelted. This was done in order to remove all foreign and worn coinage from circulation as well as to charge people a tax on reminting of coinage. Yes, countless foreign coins were imported from European sources, but they were all melted in order to make "sikka" or current rupees. These sikka coins were produced in order to make a coin seem uniform and official because any variation from well-known and trusted types of coins could result in a coin being discounted in circulation. (This also is the reason why many Mughal, Company, and later Princely State coins often had "Frozen Dates" until the 1870s or so). In essence, as soon as a a Spanish or Mexican 8 reached India up until the mid 19th century, it would have been immediately melted. And after India officially became an official possession of the British Crown in 1858, the British really just wanted their own coinage to circulate rather than have trade coins in the mix. In fact, by the very late 19th century, the British were minting their Trade dollars in India (only for a few dates were they actually produced in England) for export into East and South East Asia.

Regarding Mexican and Spanish 8's, The Spanish 8's were also made in Mexico. Mexico and many of the other colonies of New Spain produced silver, which was often shipped over to Spain. Once there it was dispersed all over Europe as part of various transactions. These colonial Spanish 8's were well-know and highly valued due to their purity, size, and intricate design that was hard to counterfeit (though there were many contemporary counterfeits). The Spanish 8's were scattered all over Europe and often even circulated during times of economic crisis, such as in England during the late 18th century. Since the 8 was so well known and since each country's government did not want to actually ship off its own coinage it was therefore and ideal trade coin. So Spanish colonial 8s were sent to China, India, and even the main colonies of settlement: the North American colonies, Australia, etc. (In fact, on the reverse of the spanish 8 is a large rendition of the coat of arms. The pillar and banner on the left side of the shield is from where the Dollar Sign "$" derives).

The Mexican 8's were in fact made for both trade and circulation from 1824-1869. But even after a decimal system was established in Mexico, 8's were still produced until 1898 so that they could still be used in trade with Asia. They technically were thought of as "Pesos" but still had "8R" upon them beneath the Cap& Rays.

And thanks, chequer. The Abebooks are cheaper than the one I found, but still a bit beyond my budget. I'll see if the library can get me a copy.

I beg to differ with you coinsnpaper, but the flow of New World silver to Europe was larger than the flow from the New World to Manilla on the Manilla Galleons. For example, according to "The Spanish Treasure Fleets" by Walton (1994), just picking a single year 1600, Spanish records show 11,000,000 pesos going from Havana to Spain and 5,000,000 from Acapulco to Manilla. Spain needed the hard silver in Europe to fund its pointless wars and keep its rapidly inflating economy growing. Remember that by 1590 Phillip II had picked a war with every maritime power in Western Europe and was fighting those wars with mercenary troops who wanted to be paid in gold and silver. All that was needed in Asia was trade money. In 1593 the Spanish crown had restricted the Mailla fleet to no more than 2 galleons and no more than 500,000 pesos in silver, however all this did was give the Dutch an opening for Asia trade since they had no restrictions on silver and were willing to provide the Asian merchants with all they wanted so the Spanish restriction was lifted.

Interesting sidenote on the resplandores being shipped to Asia. In the begining the King of Spain who still controlled the Phillipines and the major trade routes required all the 8 reales coming out of the new Republics in Mexico, Bolivia and Peru to be overstruck with the word Manilla and deep serrated lines all over the legends to wipe out the offensive terms like "republic" and "liberty". Eventually that became too difficult and inefficent so they went to counterstamping the coins with small circular stamps placed right over the word liberty on the Mexican 8's to obscure the offensive word. Mexican silver coins also flowed in large numbers not just to Asia but all over the world including the United States. Many documents from the 1820's through the 1850's from the southwest of what is now the US are written payable in "Mexican Milled Silver" or "Mexican Silver". Realize that from 1803 - 1840 the US didn't issue any dollar size silver coins ( Gobrecht dollars with mintages under 1000 don't count in this discussion). Mintages for early US dollars from 1840 on didn't reach 200,000 until 1859. Dollar size coins were in demand and Mexico supplied the product. They were also legal tender in the US until 1857 when laws were passed to retire all the Spanish and Mexican coins from circulation in the US. You just have to love history when you collect these coins.

Archraz, I have found in my readings on the period around the French and Indian Wars (a favorite time in history for me) that official government documents put out by the British are always in British monetary terms but common documents between colonists are usually expressed in "Spanish Dollars" or "Spanish Milled Silver" which would make sense since most of the circulating coinage was of Spanish Colonial origin. My favorite is a list of "payment in Spanish Pillar dollars" listed for various kinds of indian scalps in a proclamation put out by one of the northern colonies, though without looking it up I can't remember which one. (Seems like a pretty gruesome way to build a coin collection) I think the answer to your last sentence above is "yes".

Brian Mc- You are very right that the South during the 18th & 19th centuries seemingly had quite an affinity for British culture. While the trend that I mentioned regarding the use of either the Spanish dollar or the British LSD maybe explained by this as well as the southern notion of the need for more formality in official documents and other publications, I wonder if it also may have something to do with bullion flows within North America. Other than the colonies along the eastern seaboard and parts of Louisiana there were no ports in the south though which 8's would have been imported. While 8's have certainly been found during archaeological digs in the deep south, it seems that they may have been much scarcer in some parts, and therefore would not have been thought of as the common currency.