Spanish Milled Dollar

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Originally posted by swamperbob

The dies used for this particular coin were manufactured using techniques not available in the 1700s. Real 8R Pillar dies were made using individual punches for each letter and most of the other details. That makes each die an individual and they have a "character" not seen on a modern hubbed die. Because they were not finished like modern dies the fields are NOT as smooth as you see here and the letter depths always vary. The sharpness of this die and the absolute "regularity" of the lettering is modern not 18th century. Also the high rim here is indicative of a collared strike. The collar die is the third die in a modern coin press. It forms the edge of the coin in the same operation as the strike. It produces a "round" coin with a very regular diameter. The originals were struck in an open sided screw press operated by hand and they NEVER produced the raised rim visible on this coin. Originals are rarely perfectly round. Many of the counterfeit copies are re-edged after the strike to provide a more proper looking edge detail (lotus flower). This is usually done with a roller die and the post-strike edging process often distorts the rim or the design of the dentils. Most originals were edged BEFORE the strike. This step provided the upset rim needed for the open press strike and it also produced a better edge design since the blank was perfectly round before the strike but not after.

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Originally posted by swamperbob

edreyes - Hello - I don't recall seeing your name before so welcome and I hope you enjoy your experience here.
Hi and thank you, I am enjoying my stay here and find numismatics very educational. I'm thankful too that you responded to my post and promise not to be arguementative for I am here to learn.

I have been collecting coins since shortly before 1957, Mexican 8R coins since about 1960 and counterfeit coins since about the same time. At present, I own over 1,700 counterfeit 8R coins and I am adding to that total weekly.
This coin belongs in the Don Pio M. Reyes collection, my late grandfather, where most of were willed to him in the early 1900s by his mother. Thus the collection started in the late 1800s.

Mexican 8R forgeries like all other counterfeits come is two major varieties - those made to circulate at face value (Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits) and those made to fool collectors (Numismatic Counterfeits).
That's very good to know and really got me started going deeper in researching this collection.

The quick answer is that your coin is a counterfeit. I believe it is a Numismatic Counterfeit of the second general type I note above. It was meant to be sold to tourists at flea markets and Bazaars in the orient. The age of the coin is rather hard to establish but the method of manufacture is critical in that regard - so I have a couple simple questions.

1. What does the coin weigh? If you can find a 1/10th gram scale that will be accurate enough for my purposes.
I have to apologize but I don't possess a weigh scale of that accuracy. However, I do have a digital scale, that I use for pool cues, though not certified accurate. I can use it to at least show weight differences if you wish.

2. What EXACTLY does the edge look like? - a photo would help.

3. Are there overlaps or the indication of a seal on the edge of the coin?
I did not find an overlap nor anything that resembles a seal. All they look to me are a chain of flower buds.


4. Does the coin ring like a US silver dollar when balanced on the tip of your finger and tapped lightly with a wooden pencil or plastic pen? Duration and pitch are both critical - 90% silver coins of dollar size will ALL ring with the identical pitch and for the same duration.
It did take some practice, and over the bed to protect the coin when dropped, but a nice hold on the pen between the thumb and middle finger coupled with a decisive tap does produce great results. My estimate for audible reverberation duration is around 4 seconds after the coin is tapped. "Estimate" as I was only counting "one one thousand, two one thousand, etc with the test specimen around 9-10 inches from my ear. The Morgan, Pillar and some others in the test gave out nice solid tones of pitch close to the others except for the 10z .999 silver World Trade Unit (coin#1). This gave out the high pitch but shorter duration and this possibly can be because of its thickness. WTU=2.92mm, 1921 Morgan=2.82mm and the 1743 Pillars= 2.42 at its thickest and 2.20mm at its thiness. The WTU diameter is 39.13mm, the Morgan's is 38.13mm and the Pillar's is 40.36-40.94mm.

The problems here - other than the fact that I also own a few of these copies are:

1. The very irregular dentils (tooth like devices used around the edge of many coins to prevent shaving) especially the ones that look like they have concave centers. For example, look at the dentils on the shield side over the letters D.G.. If you notice, several look hollow - a feature seen on castings because of a failure of the mold to exactly reproduce the fine details of the host being copied.

2. In this case, the host coin used to make the mold was not real either because this coin simply does not match what a real 1743 8R coins looked like. For a couple of the many examples I could cite - look at the castles in the shield. On originals there are lines indicative of stone blocks forming the walls around the windows in the lower part of the castle. Here the wall is smooth with a window outline. The wall is the oiginal die field not raised above it. The Lions in the other quadrants - do not match. These were punched into the dies with ONE puncheon - so with some very minor exceptions the two Lions ALWAYS MATCH.
This info sure made me look closer at the photos in the 1939 Wayte Raymond book "The Silver Dollars of North and South America". Didn't you mention above though that they may not at that era have the capability of aithful reproduction? So wouldn't this element, in this case the lion and castles, be just as close as the punch artisan can make it?

3. The surface of the coin itself is porous an indication of being a casting.

4. Look at the mint marks - the M with the small o above it on both sides of the date. They should match. Look at the first letters of the two words VTRAQUE and VNUM - those two letters are NOT the same shape the first V has sides of the same thickness and the V in VNUM has unbalanced sides. Letters were individually punched with puncheons.
If the letters are individually punched, as you stated, with puncheons then they would most likely exhibit differences due to different punching force applied and use of different puncheons. Don't those puncheons wear-out or don't they use several puncheons in the event that one wears out or breaks? Are the manufacture of the puncheons always true to the letter's dimensions? Could it also be possible that that area of the coin received force enough to deform that area while it was already in circulation? Just some questions that popped up in my mind after reading up on this and playing detective.

There are other clues but those should suffice. I would not suggest sending it for grading because it will return in a body bag from any of the reputable services. If anyone suggests or insists that this is real offer them the same bet that I spoke of up above.

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