Is VAMming A Volatile Hobby?

Your perception is accurate, but hardly limited to VAMs. Every type has its' variety aficionados, and those who could not care less. In the case of Morgans, the effect is exaggerated because of the large number collecting the type, and the huge spectrum of known VAMs. It's daunting to the first-time looker. Morgan collectors were very well established before the advent of VAMming, to boot. I think the sheer number of available varieties is part of the appeal, to the right type of person.

Me, I have an addictive and obsessive personality. Makes it easier to cope.

it seems every coin I need is going for stupid money. I need 1 specific VAM to finish up my B1 Reverse set once again and there was one graded MS-64 unattributed on ebay that ended yesterday. I actually bid a insane amount because I just wanted it and never thought it would go to my maximum amount anyway, well lo and behold this 1878 MS-64 unattributed VAM-80 Morgan (not a hot 50 or TOP 100 coin) High bid was $365.00. That is just insane if you ask me. At least I get the pleasure of knowing the buyer paid way to much for theirs even though I still dont have one

yes 1878-P

It takes a particular type of personality to remain patient and helpful in the face of repeated identical questions and identical mistakes from an endless succession of new collectors. As you might have noticed (), those traits don't always go along with the studious style and substantial disposable income required of the serious VAMmers (the ones who are considered the "movers and shakers" of the hobby.) Obviously I can't make excuses for your treatment elsewhere, but I will say for the record that any such behavior here at CCF will not be tolerated. It is our deliberate mission here to serve the newer collector, in the interest of furthering the expansion of the hobby and inspiring the next generation of numismatists. Some do not realize how imperative this is for the survival of coin collecting as a whole.

If you feel that you're being ill-treated here at Coin Community, contact us immediately. If you feel that a Moderator is guilty of this behavior, contact another Moderator. We do not walk in lock-step. We aren't afraid to tell each other when we're making mistakes - you just don't get to see the fun in public.

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There should be no question as to the attribution of a given VAM. A die pair is a die pair. What many do not realize, though, is just how early we are in the whole process. We've just barely scratched the surface. Even so, there are already thousands of known VAMs and the number zeewool quoted for Busties is nearly covered by 1878 Morgan mintages alone - there are almost 400 known 1878 VAMs between Philly, San Francisco and Carson City. The Mint produced something like 7100 Morgan dies (read this as 3550 "die pairs") between 1878 and 1903 alone; factor in differing combinations of dies as wear, breakage and polishing switched them around, and the number of potential die pairings becomes staggering.

We don't have in-depth study of more than a few of them. Worse, that information is (rightly in most cases) available only for a price, by way of compensating the original researcher through purchase of their book or whatever. It's nice to think that information is free, unless you're the one providing the information after years and thousands of hours of your own labor.

The freely-available information is incomplete in the overwhelming majority of cases. Not even the greatest among VAMmers has more than a tiny fraction of that information in their head. In most cases, the coin you present here for myself or another to attribute results in me doing the same thing you might - going out to scour the available sources for clues. It's frustrating, both for the person asking and the person answering, and a lot of times we just won't have the answer without a near-microscopic examination of the coin in question.

I am neither addicted or turned off. I am neither waxing or waning. There are a good many folks who are addicted to vamming that I consider to be very nice people, knowledgeable people, and people who I think should be involved in taking their hobby to the next level....An attributor, an attorney, a dealer, and a collector come to mind as folks who would be great leaders.

Are you reading my mind Oz? You're not one of those remote viewers are you?

Wow Dave, you have the potential to be fairly long winded if you want to be. I like that. You covered a lot of ground there, and didn't say one little thing that I would disagree with.

It has been my view that the new vammer often is the one without the patience. He or she will ask for help in identification, and it is given. He or she may then reply 'well, what about this or that?' the old vammer will reply with an explanation that is not to the new vammer's understanding or satisfaction, and will begin to argue a trivial point, which is countered with a cold shoulder. (Understandably, in my opinion).

As you implied Dave, vamming takes a certain level of financial investment, as well as time and perseverance to achieve the knowledge required to be the hunter, rather than the prey.

I do not hesitate to think that the majority of vammers are dealers rather than true collectors, and while they welcome new vammers, they wish to see the collector type joining the ranks rather than another dealer who can only be looked upon as competition. The relationship between dealers and collectors is purely symbiotic. One cannot exist without the other.

There are some vammers who consider their acquired knowledge to possess a monetary value, and take on an almost jealous nature if they feel that they are merely being asked to hand over this hard earned knowledge to someone who will only use it to make a quick profit. These folks are in the minority however, and should not be used as examples of the entire vamming community. Overall, vammers are a great bunch of people.

Yes, I too have seen the type that you speak of Nut. Those who's only interest is in the coin in hand. Which VAM is it, so a profit can be made. I see their questions answered very quickly however, and some have been doing this for a very, very long time. Everyone knows who they are, yet their questions are answered with vigor . Selectivity seems to come into play somewhere there.

As for the attribution of a particular VAM, perhaps what hemisboats referred to was the continuing process of weeding out those singular die pairings that have been designated in error twice with different VAM numbers. I have seen this more than just a couple of times myself. I think that (as far as die varieties go) it will be a very, very long time, if ever, that the Morgan series develops to the state of accuracy of the capped bust halves for instance, due to the sheer volume of dies produced.

CBH for example, while I do not view as such a thing of beauty or artistic talent as encountered on the Morgan, are more appealing 'to me' because of the simplicity of identification, and understanding of scarcity based on a far more realistic rarity scale.

Consider this: 1921 remains the most common of Morgan dates, yet just try finding one listed as an R-1 or R-2. Talk about a 'daunting task'. The vast majority of 1921 Morgans, despite the mm, are listed as R-5, R-6, and R-7. (Please correct me if I am wrong about that).

While I understand that these designations of rarity were best guess judgments at time of discovery, the newbie does not consider this, because the rest of the Coin World seems to be more established in the census of extant specimens. (An R-5 is a rare coin). It is easy for a new vammer to feel that he has been tricked into buying a coin that was referenced (on such and such a site) as being an R-5, when in reality it is just a common coin.

Now, I realize that based on the sheer number of die pairings of 1921 Morgans, and the fact that most of the extant coins have not yet been checked for die variety, possibly the rarity designations might be better restrained altogether until such time as at least a halfway accurate census assessment can be made.

New vammers enter, expecting the VAM that they just bought is a great buy based on it's touted rarity. After the exciting purchase, they find out that the rarity factors are just a game of smoke and mirrors. It would not surprise me to learn that new vammers leave in disappointment at a rate nearly equaling that of those entering.

Vamming is growing as a bubble, and being filled with new vammers, but there are holes in the bubble, and folks are escaping to more stable investments. (That is where I see the 'waxing and waning'). I would think that unless these holes are patched up with a degree of realism (rarity factors) that the newbie can count on, actual growth will be stymied.

Sure, sales are made to the newbie, and thus the need for growth in the hobby, but one time sales are not self sustaining, so there needs to be a way of keeping these new collectors interested and involved, and dangling an 'R-6' in the face of the new vammer (who has already learned through one bad experience that this is really just a common coin) is not necessarily the best way to go about it. Maybe not all, but many new folks view the situation as a 'turn off'.

I know that this rarity factor thing is a very old issue and has been beaten to death many times, but I see it as the #1 obstacle to real growth.

These are my opinions, and I know that they differ from many people who feel that they know far more about things than I do, but I am entitled to my opinions and I am not afraid to share them. By speaking my mind, I am usually met with differences of opinion, from which I often learn new things. So if I am wrong, please teach me. If you 'are' able to teach me something, I will let you know with my thanks.

I just got my "Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace dollars" (aka the VAM Bible) and I am indeed overwhelmed with the myriad of differences. I got it for $50 in ebay, it is brand new condition. Where to start?
Guess there is no substitute for read, read, read and look, look, look at difference Dollars to gain the knowledge of VAM's.

I note in a post above that someone stated that some Vammers do not want to hand over knowledge that was gained by midnight oil to newcomers who want a quick profit. I can identify with that, my wife does genealogical research and she is very reluctant to hand over knowledge that she gained through endless hours of research, library trips, digging through court house records all over the state, checking every headstone in cemeteries, etc.

That being said, would it be possible for someone competent in VAM's to give a list of the top 10, 20, or 25 (or whatever the number is) sought after VAM's. As a newcomer I don't know which are of the most interest. I have no interest in collecting VAM's, just want to know which are the ones that are collected and sought after most so I can make a "quick profit" when I find one. You don't have to divulge your hard earned Knowledge, just which ones are most worth seeking after and I will use my book to learn about those first.

Yes, I read you loud & clear Bryan. Exactly, vams 'are' different in this respect, but does the new vammer know that?

The new vammer who is familiar with other denominations and varieties will be caught in a culture shock and the vammer new to coins altogether will be dumbfounded. There is one thing that they both will feel that they understand though, and that is, that rarity directly equates to value, and this will be the main focus of their beginnings (in many cases).

There has been much discussion in other forums on bringing the new vammer into the hobby. This was the crux of my post.

Basicbob, I am hardly what anyone would call an expert in vams, but if I were, I would be more than happy to help in anyway I could. Luckily for you, there are several great folks right here who I consider to be experts, and I have very little doubt that they would give you all the help and guidance that you might need, and when the questions get sorta squirrely, they will know exactly how and where to guide you to next. You are in very good company with Ozland, SeatedNut, Bryan1315, SuperDave, Aladinslamp, and several others right here. They do not strike me as the type to be selfish with their knowledge.
All I would like to recommend is that you refrain from running out and buying a bunch of silver dollars before getting acquainted with these guys.