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 Replies: 24 / Views: 2,801 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
I bought a 1900-O today and the obverse mostly matches that of VAM-14A, but no reverse markers are listed at VAMWorld. Does that mean the attribution process is over regardless of the reverse? I'm curious because this coin has some really nice markers on the reverse, a clash coming off his right wing tip (I'm assuming her neckline), a nice crack through *UNIT, a clash on the inside of the left wreath (looks like her lips? and I think I see the bridge of her nose, but could be a light scratch), and another crack from the rim above M through the top of ERI. I said mostly at the beginning because she has the clash on her neck (looks like the eagles feather?), she has the spikes coming off her chin and lips, and the crack through the date seems very similar, but I don't see the doubling of the date they show. If anything, mine looks doubled on the inside of the last 0. I'll start with the date and put up other pics if I need to.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1219 Posts |
Scooby, a picture of the neck line clash and transfered letter would lock this up. Check the reverse for the die gouges between left wing and body. VAM 14 is an earlier die state, but the gouges may still be there. Not all markers are written up for different die states. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4000 Posts |
Thanks MorgansRmine, I didn't see a letter transfer, or the gouges on the inside of the wing. And it still looks to me like the last 0 of the date is doubled on the inside, but I guess it could just be MD. I didn't get it in the picture, but below the clash of the ?lips? inside the wreath appears to be the bridge of her nose running beneath it.  |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I sure like the date die crack and clash locations for 14A, but yours has what looks like an obviously left-doubled second 0 which neither 14 or 14A appear to have. In addition, I see what looks like a die scratch between the eagle's neck and wing - the detail pic for 14's wing gouges appear to show it, but I'm not sure. I'd be hitting VAMworld looking for people who have decent images of this VAM from their own collection. It's already been mistaken/caused the elimination of a couple other VAMs - perhaps a little in-depth research is necessary to finally nail 14/14A down, and you could be part of it. VAMworld is where you want to do that. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
I noticed last night what you were talking about as far as other VAM's being misattributed. I kind of threw these pictures together kind of quick this morning because I was already late for work! Is there another shot I should try to get to help? Would a better shot of the date help? I didn't notice the potential scratch between the eagle's neck and wing before you mentioned it. I'll check it out tonight when I get home. And what about the nose bridge clash, if that's what it is. I couldn't tell if it was a clash or a scratch. I didn't really study it very hard. It might even be PMD, I don't know. I'll have to look at it a little closer tonight as well. Is there normally a clash there for a 14/14A? So much for a quick question. I thought I would get a response of "yep, attribution is over". Edited by Scooby Due
04/28/2010 1:11 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1219 Posts |
Scooby & Dave, I believe what you seeing on the last zero is just the depth of the digit. Picture appears to be taken with the coin at a slight angle. If you can get a picture straight down on the two zeros I believe the depth would disappear. Unless someone could prove the first letter transfer was polished and the second letter transfer is just slightly lower, the die is the die. But my thinking could be wrong.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
IMHO its certainly VAM 14A, while die cracks unless they are "die breaks", they are like finger prints dies don't break exactly the same way, while your die cracks are not listable by themselves they are perfect supporting attributions in identifying vams. your die break matches plate photo's on vamworld,as do the neck clashings and lip clashings, it does not match vam29A , Very nice find! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
Thanks aladinslamp, I don't know if it's a nice find or not, I'm just still trying to get the hang of attributing! MorgansRmine, here is another, hopefully better, shot of the date.  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Yeah, MorgansRmine was right on that 0 - it was the camera angle. This one's settled.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
Sorry, I'll try to take better pics in the future. I'll call it 14A!
So, the answer to my original question is, if I find the obverse match, the reverse doesn't matter - attribution done. Right?
Thanks for all of your help!
Edited by Scooby Due
04/29/2010 10:24 am
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
No Scooby, that is most definitely NOT correct. The reverse matters just as much as the obverse. It takes both reverse and obverse to make a die pair. There are many obverse dies that were paired with more than one reverse, and visa-versa. Nobody has so far seen all there is is to be seen, and nobody knows all there is to be known about die pairings, so anybody who claims to be able to identify a die pair just by looking at one side of the coin is only kidding the mirror.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
So, with no reverse markers listed at VAMWorld, is it just common knowledge that this obverse only had one reverse pairing? Which leads me to ask, when this die pair first started striking coins, they would not have had the cracks, would it still be a VAM-14A and just an earlier die state? Or would it be assigned a different VAM #? Every time I think I'm starting to understand, I don't get it. LOL! |
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
There are 2 coins to this story. The single clash is VAM 14A and the double clash is VAM 41A. I was involved with both of these coins at the time they were listed. I have a letter for the Disc. coin on the 14A (Dec '03) and I sold the coin to Kimpton that became the 41A (Jan'04). There are no rev pics on VAMworld for the 41A and I didn't take any before I sold it. There are clash marks on your coin rev. that I don't have on mine(14A). |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
There are clash marks on your coin rev. that I don't have on mine So we're not done yet. Cool!  Given ocsjr2001's input, 41A is not only in play, but likely now. Ocsjr2001, do you believe these (14 & 41) to have been a shared obverse? OK, Scooby, here's what we need next. Full-face pics of obverse and reverse if you can (to see if we can find some other unique features), and detail shots (you're getting nice detail shots) of the mintmark (for location and tilt). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4000 Posts |
Here's a shot of the area where I'm not sure if it's a clash of the bridge of her nose, or just a scratch. Don't know if you need it or not.  |
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Replies: 24 / Views: 2,801 |
Posted 04/28/2010 11:54 am
