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 Replies: 41 / Views: 5,825 |
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New Member
United States
43 Posts |
Not MS70...  ... I may be new to the forums, but am not such a new collector. But.... could this be a MS68. or even ... gasp! ... MS69 (though my mind has almost reflexively shut out that possibility, regardless of the "letter of the law")? Based on the PCGS written standards, it appears to clearly meet MS68 standards, and seems to fit the description of the elusive MS69 quite well, as you can see (or not see) it requires a degree of magnification to spot any flaws, especially on the reverse, though there is a visible (though minor) die imperfection, which I'll leave for you to spot. Appears to be an easy MS-67, whatever the case, but I need not say that at these levels the value differences between grades from MS67 and up are enormous. I plan to send it off to get an "official" certification, regardless -- and any advice regarding such from non-affiliated parties is most welcome -- but I'd like to get some experienced collectors' 2 cents (I could not resist..) first. Anyhow, enjoy the view!    Edited by mslibertysbeau
08/16/2010 02:35 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2120 Posts |
would need hi res photos to be able to see.
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New Member
 United States
43 Posts |
Yes, 100kb is quite a limitation for something like this. But it's difficult to even get much better resolution for such a small object due to macro distance limitations with my cameras.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
672 Posts |
post it offsite and link to it...
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Beard detail for instance, is not very sharp with this resolution.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
I can see why you're excited about this coin. It's a very nice piece that would seem a lock for MS66RD. The obverse details are a touch weak, even for a 1940-S, and that might keep it out of a 67 holder but you never know until you try.
An NGC MS67RD sold on Heritage in June 2010 for $127, so I'd send her in and see what happens.
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New Member
United States
43 Posts |
Don't get your hopes up, bherring1964, I'm not planning on selling it for $127 before getting it officially graded. :p
I've been looking at A LOT of pics of professionally graded MS67 and MS68 old Lincolns (newer ones have much more detailed engraving and are not at all comparable), and a few (all much newer) MS69s, and the grading appears to be all over the place.
One NGC MS67 looked better in virtually all aspects than most of the MS68s to my eyes. NONE of the older Lincolns had much beard detail at all. One of the MS68s was virtually smooth there. The few 1940S and 1941S coins in this range that could be well enough zoomed to tell had similarly weak coat detail, and reverse lettering. Most of the MS67s were noticeably more marked than this one, but -- as noted above -- some looked virtually flawless, as good as the MS68s.
Overall, this piece appeared to be more in line with the MS68s than MS67s as far as abrasions go, and there seemed to be no clear correlation between the slight variations of other characteristics of these exceptional coins and their certified grades in this range.
It's truly "splitting hairs". Strange that such minuscule, subjective differences can make the difference between a coin being perceived as an ultra-rarity worth thousands and a nice, but not particularly special piece valued in the low hundreds.
The more I look at the most comparable pieces, the more I think this would come down to what appeals to whoever does the grading, the observed striking characteristics of that particular issue (which I'm sure the pros have seen way more of than any of us), and simply whether or not whoever is/are doing the grading is/are more likely to emphasize the overall sense of the coin or its weakest aspect.
Might be best to just hedge my bets, toss it out there, and let the buyers decide. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush, but more importantly, worth a lot more than 1/10 of a bird in the hand.
Edited by mslibertysbeau
08/16/2010 2:14 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2120 Posts |
With the different lighting on the third pic, I would have to say this is actually pretty well struck. Good detail all around. I would definitely recommend sending it in. No way to really be able to tell the difference between MS67-70 with out it being in hand (or obscenely large resolution pictures with multiple different lighting angles). So we will have to wait and see. Can;t wait to see what it grades.  Edited by Namachieli
08/16/2010 1:56 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Here's a PCGS MS66RD from CoinFacts. PCGS has only graded 1 (Top Pop) 1940-S at MS68RD. They've graded 127 at MS67RD. Focus on the NGC/PCGS pieces at 67. ANACS has a bunch of 68's that have sold on Heritage but they sold at 67 money and for good reason. Best of Luck!  |
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New Member
United States
43 Posts |
That PCGS MS66 is a very nice piece, for sure, but even at half the magnification of the one I posted, it's much more noticeably marked on the obverse, with medium sized scratches on the tip of the shoulder and just behind the eyebrow, and some smaller scratches, particularly on the shoulder. The reverse is noticeably less cleanly struck as well.
It appears to me the PCGS folks found the obverse just too marred and the striking defects on the reverse too distracting for that piece to go MS67, however stunning the luster and pleasing red toning. In fact, the level of marring of the bust appears congruent with MS65 to my eyes, but other aspects definitely merit the MS66 grade or better. A nice piece, for sure, and I personally find the striking defects interesting.
Anyhow, I appreciate everybody's input. It appears we have one PCGS MS66-67 opinion, and others who would need to see it up close and personal or have more and better pics to make a good call. Time to do some more research into the grading services and the processes they use. Definitely want to make sure at least several people have input into the grade that's assigned.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
There are several CCF members who specialize in Lincoln cents and I hope they chime in here. You might want to PM BadThad if he doesn't post to this thread today.
From what I can see, your coin has a great shot at MS67RD from either NGC or PCGS and I'd stick with these major TPGs if it were my coin.
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
Your coin is very nice and very clean. I would bet it would grade at MS66RD possibly 67RD. Help me BadThad, your my only hope :-)
swcoin.ecrater.com
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19963 Posts |
Nice coin!  How many Lincolns have you submitted to NGC or PCGS? I hate to break this to you, but the coin looks to be either 65/66 because of the subdued luster. All the major TGP's grade using mostly luster in the gem level. I've seen it far too many times. The only way to accurately determine this in hand, it's almost impossible from pictures. As best I can tell from the pictures, there's some light spots in the obverse fields which are the prime focal areas. There's also a few contact marks on the temple. These are not due to strike because the coin is fully struck. Sometimes that area can be forgiven when planchet scratches are evident on the shoulder, but that's not the case here IMO. I also see a rim hit above the T in TRUST. The reverse is AWESOME for the issue! The strike is so good that the O in ONE is fully formed (this also confirms the well-struck obverse shoulder). The lack of hits on the wheats, ONE CENT and USA might propel this coin to a 66. All in all, it's definately a killer Lincoln!  Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19963 Posts |
Quote:
Overall, this piece appeared to be more in line with the MS68s than MS67s as far as abrasions go, and there seemed to be no clear correlation between the slight variations of other characteristics of these exceptional coins and their certified grades in this range.
It's truly "splitting hairs". Strange that such minuscule, subjective differences can make the difference between a coin being perceived as an ultra-rarity worth thousands and a nice, but not particularly special piece valued in the low hundreds.
The more I look at the most comparable pieces, the more I think this would come down to what appeals to whoever does the grading, the observed striking characteristics of that particular issue (which I'm sure the pros have seen way more of than any of us), and simply whether or not whoever is/are doing the grading is/are more likely to emphasize the overall sense of the coin or its weakest aspect.
It's all about luster as I noted above. An experienced numismatist will usually determine grade within 5-10 seconds, foremost is eye appeal. Once the coin is in hand, a quick look at the luster determines eye appeal. Notice how bright and flashy the coin Brad posted is.....it glows. Next, if needed, some low magnification is used to examine areas that caught the eye on the initial look. Boom, it's done within 15 seconds. My point is some minor imperfections won't stop a coin from getting a top grade and lack of them won't get you a top grade either. It's all about luster and eye appeal. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19963 Posts |
For reference, here's my NGC 66.  Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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New Member
United States
43 Posts |
I haven't submitted any Lincolns to anywhere. What's the point if they're not ultra-rare or very high grade? Now this is even making less sense to me, as there is an IGC MS-68 1944D Lincoln currently on ebay that has a similarly subdued luster than the piece I posted, and appears to have a few faintly darkened areas. But it's just about flawless, even at close to the zoom level of the pics I posted. BTW, the 1st pic was lightened up a bit to show more detail. There's also a NGC MS67 1960 large date that's almost red-brown. And what of MS 67 brown or red/brown pieces? Color me totally confused.  This piece has an almost golden, brassy appearance when directly viewed in natural light, with a sort of coarse luster, almost matte-like. One of the things I find very interesting about it. Very interesting piece directly viewed, and I've been unable to capture the character of it properly in pics. That NGC MS66 is a very nice piece, too, BadThad. But I do notice more flaws in the fields and scuffing on the lapel at about 1/2 the zoom level of the piece I posted. Probably more noticeable at a higher zoom. Still, hardly much different than some pieces that graded higher. One thing's for sure: a MS66 would not be worth selling. Anyhow, a few more pics that were taken in different natural lighting. Interesting how lighting affects the appearance:     Edited by mslibertysbeau
08/19/2010 11:55 pm
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Replies: 41 / Views: 5,825 |
Posted 08/16/2010 12:49 am
