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2009 Silver Proof Quarter Die Error

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Pillar of the Community
Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5618 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2010  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I appreciate your passion in this coin and believe the best you could do, for your self, would be to send the coin to Mr D..............Good Luck.
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macmercury's Avatar
United States
5832 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2010  2:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow!
I say this raise a question how knowledgeable PCGS staffs in determining error coins, especially with unknown varieties. It is sure that after your attempts with pointing out the obvious defect, not getting a second or third opinion and just turning head is bad practices.
Send it to Mike like all suggested.
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2010  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is my intent to see if Mike Diamond will do a review of the coin for me. I like to do things certain ways (read that I am a stubborn old cuss) and I am intent on joining CONECA before asking him to put the effort out. I have just mailed my membership form and check and once it is accepted I will open lines of communications on a formal basis. I am not in a grand hurry and I really appreciate all of the questions and opinions that I am getting here and on other boards I have posted on. One of the things that I have discovered is that the reeding anomaly is actually a secondary effect that operates in conjunction with the fact that silver quarter planchets made in Perth have a groove that can survive the minting process. One of my 2010 silver proof quarter sets shows the groove remnant on all five coins. In my 2009 sets, only this coin shows any remaining groove from upsetting and it follows the field defect on the coin and disappears where the coin is normal. Apparently neither the mint nor PCGS care about a groove in the reeding, the mint doesn't seem to have dome anything to eliminate it and PCGS did not grade down or refuse to grade for it. In fact, the PCGS slab completely hides the reeding on the quarter.
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2010  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mike Diamond has agreed to review the coin and I will send it to him either today or tomorrow. We gave ourselves a new camera for Christmas, a Canon EOS Rebel T2i with a Canon EF S 18-135mm IS lens and a few little trinkets, one of which is a lens reversing ring and adapters that allow me to attach my old Canon FD 35-105mm F3.5 zoom in the even older "poor man's macro" orientation. Many lenses, when reversed can focus close and achieve significant magnification. I also stumbled on a lighting scenario that shows my coin off quite well. Here are a couple images to illustrate what I mean. These images are reduced quality but are just 800 pixel square crops from a 5184X3456 photo. The camera and lens are achieving somewhere around 10,000 pixels per inch and in classic 35mm terms about a 2X macro view. The raised portion of the field can finally be clearly seen in these images. Finding this lighting was purely chance and I hope that I can figure it out so that I can repeat it on this and other coins.

2009-Silver-Proof-Quarter-Die-Error

2009-Silver-Proof-Quarter-Die-Error
Edited by clairhardesty
12/28/2010 11:21 am
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2011  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an annotated image that explains what can be seen on the coin. The color reduction was necessary to get the file size down. The comment about roughness loses meaning at this file size but in the full resolution image the difference between the two field areas is clear. Whatever the die hit was not as polished as the die field. What is clear in this image is the fact that the upper section of the field is raised, as evidenced by the lettering sidewalls. This picture was taken with two light sources, one from the top and one from the bottom, causing lots of reflections and some shadows.

Mike Diamond should receive the coin today and hopefully we will get his take on the coin sometime later this week.

Since taking these images, I have done some more experimenting with my new camera and can now produce fairly good pictures with a resolution of about 1 micron per pixel, a 35mm equivalent of about a 7X macro. I am using a Canon T2i with a Canon EF-S 18-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS zoom lens reverse mounted via an adapter ring. In this configuration the autofocus and image stabilizer are inactive but the lens is left with its aperture wide open. The setup can focus on a subject about 8 inches from the "film" plane, leaving about 1-5/8 inches from les to subject, plenty of room for decent lighting. Depth of field is limited by the inability to stop down the lens (something that my 30 year old FD 35-105mm zoom can still do when mounted backwards) but the wide ISO range (~100 to ~12800) and the shutter speed range (30" to 1/4000") give plenty of exposure choices. The images presented so far were taken with the FD 35-105mm lens which has a best case resolution of about 2.5 microns per pixel (about a 3X macro) but it has better depth of field.

At 1 micron per pixel, the full frame is about 5.2mm X 3.4mm or about 0.20 inch by 0.13 inch. At its highest physical resolution my scanner is 9600DPI or 2.65 microns per pixel so I can now meet and even exceed that with the ability to vary the lighting to improve information gathering.

2009-Silver-Proof-Quarter-Die-Error
Valued Member
parkquarters's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  06:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add parkquarters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bummer )0:
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What bummer?

Mike Diamond has the coin and he expects to get to evaluating it late this week (he has many demands on his time and probably many coins ahead of mine). We may hear something from him as early as next week but as soon as he does have information for me I will share it here. I am still hoping that the fact that PCGS failed to see anything wrong with the coin will turn out as a positive for me and the value of the coin itself. That would of course violate my own mantra of buy the coin not the package but this time I might be selling not buying so I might let my scruples down. There is still not another coin like mine as far as I know but since it is a die caused error that possibility still exists and mine may qualify as the discovery coin if an article that describes it concisely can be published. It is my hope that once one or more articles are published that at least a few more of the coins show up. Right around one million silver proof Northern Mariana Islands coins were minted and if mine is truly one in a million that would be OK too.
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parkquarters's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add parkquarters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What bummer?



Bummer that you had to pay pcgs and they didn't see the error and give you that attribution that you payed for and they are a leader in the TPG industry.unless mike diamond helps you out what a nice guy he is dont you think ?
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2011  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I am upset that PCGS failed to do what I paid them to. I honestly help in the highest regard and made the (now known to be false) assumption that one of the reasons that they charged so much more than others for error attribution was that they had the best people on the job. Now that they screwed it up I think that it may be a good talking point for the coin. "Come see the coin PCGS insists is not an error!" Maybe if I can get an article written about the coin PCGS or a competitor will offer to authenticate and grade it as an error for free.

Mike Diamond has been extremely gracious. He offered to look the coin over without charge because it has piqued his interest. I pay all of the shipping and insurance of course but he is waiving his normal attribution fee because he wants to see the coin, in part because of the PCGS fiasco. I still wish I could get a look at the proof quarter presses in San Francisco because I think that if I could that I could figure out exactly what the die struck before it minted my coin.
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 01/06/2011  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have some preliminary analysis information from Mike Diamond, President of CONECA. He is sure that the coin is the result of a defective die. He thinks that the coin may be the result of a die that was errantly polished, that the arc of lowered field (on the die, raised on the coin) is the result of a die polishing accident of some sort. This theory doesn't directly account for the shape of the anomaly, an apparently perfect arc, but it does account for everything else about the defect. My impact theory suffers from the problem of explaining why, if the die hit something, there is not more damage to the lettering and at lease some damage to the rim area of the coin. An impact should have pushed metal somewhere but a polisher would have simply removed metal from the die. I think that if we can find a way to explain the crescent shape that an accidental or overly aggressively polishing of the field mirror may be the best stab at the cause of the die defect. He does plan on doing a write up for Coin World but wants to compare my coin to one that a friend showed years ago from a Special Mint Set first and it may take some time for him to get that coin so I will let him keep my coin for that comparison to occur. My two biggest questions about the polishing theory are how to explain the arc (if it was lower instead of higher on the coin it could be explained by a polishing disc that was not properly centered on the die) and how to explain what appear to be lines in the arc that appear to run radial to the coin (polishing should run perpendicular to these lines). The die may have been in some sort of polishing mount that turned it and it was simply misaligned and an extra arc was ground off the die field, nearly grinding through some of the lettering. I look forward to seeing Mike's final analysis and my coin in print.
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clairhardesty's Avatar
United States
1027 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2011  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since neither the impact theory or the polish theory fully explain the coin, I propose combining them. I now suggest for your amusement, the impact-polish theory. The hammer (obverse) die hits the metal plate seen in this picture of a Canadian silver proof press

2009-Silver-Proof-Quarter-Die-Error

and then is sent to the rework shop where the crescent created by the impact is polished until the damage is removed. At this point it becomes clear that lapping the rest of the field down to meet the arc will render the die unusable and no further work is done. Then the die is accidentally sent to the production floor where several coins are minted before the mistake is discovered, my coin included.

This scenario requires a comedy of errors but they are all human errors and all individually plausible if die rework was still being done in San Francisco on the silver proof line in 2009 and if we use presses similar to the ones used in Canada. At least this combination theory can explain everything seen on the coin especially the near perfect arc that is slightly larger than a finished quarter and the level of polish on the raised field portion. In the Canadian press the reeding collar is well below that top plate and the anvil die rises after striking to push the coin up above the plate where it is removed by hand. Then another planchet is placed into the opening in the plate as the anvil descends and the next coin is struck twice before the process repeats.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2011  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A very interesting read, and a significant defect on a proof die!
Perhaps Mike Diamond will write an article about it?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2738 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will definitely be writing it up for Coin World. Right now I'm waiting on a comparision specimen that might be useful in the analysis.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Valued Member
parkquarters's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add parkquarters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This should be interesting ! maybe this will be a significant proof error quarter find worth big bucks clair you luck dog .
Valued Member
Canada
75 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2011  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add flipcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
that's a very nice coin like die cracks.
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