Question On The 1880 O V-6 -Vs- V6A

You know Russ, I originally got into this coin stuff because I suddenly went from owning no coins whatsoever, to owning thousands of them, and I felt obliged to find out something about them.....Then my focus turned to being as good if not better than the next person in the area of general knowledge.....Your question solidifies my fear that either I have wasted a lot of time and effort in vain because I still do not understand just what this VAM stuff is all about, or vamming is just a cult that only certain types of folks can embrace.

Now, I am by no means stupid enough to think that vamming is about die pairs, or anything so realistic.....It is all about following the decisions of one person who (in my opinion), started off on the wrong foot, and went too far, too fast, and in the wrong direction.......similarities between dies are absolutely meaningless unless truth is inconsequential.

How many "stages" of vam-6 are there already? How many of these "stages" are actually made up of different dies?

Consider the alleged 'first' Morgan....vam-9....Why is not vam-14 designated as vam-9a.....why is not VAM 14.15 designated as vam-9b ? They all share the same obverse, but a different reverse (which logically means that they are three different die pairs) just like this 1880-O VAM 6-a,b,c,d thing.

I am inclined to believe that the term "vam" refers to an obverse die, and the term "stage" refers to clash marks, reverse dies, gouges, polishing lines, and other minor specks on a coin......Am I wrong about this? I suggest that anyone should think first before telling me that I am wrong.

If someone does have a "vam-6" coin with no gouge, what would that mean (or prove)?

Yes Russ.....I am greatly impressed by your line of thinking.....You are in fact not a lemming as I consider the overwhelming majority of vammers to be.

The fact of the matter is that while other variety denominations such as CBH or early cents are based on die identification and die varieties, this in not the case with vams. With vams, the die is not the die......the die does not matter....what matters is similarities (as identified by one person).....This is why vamming is what it is today......It could and should be much more, it should be far more popular given the availability and relatively high grade condition of these coins......Why do the vast majority of coin collectors shy away from such big beautiful coins except just as a type or year set? The answer is pretty obvious if you can get out of the forest long enough to actually see the trees. The lack of conformity to the widely accepted notion of 'the die is the die' reality.

Whose fault is this? Is it the fault of the prospective newcomer to vamming who will not submit to the unrealistic parameters set on this dark corner of numismatics? I think not.....those who choose not to dive into such an obvious quagmire of misguidance are not at fault.....Is it the fault of LVA for coming up with and nurturing such a confusing monstrosity? Again, I do not place blame on him either.....He just came up with this stuff, but forced no one to buy into it all.

It is the fault of the vamming community as a whole.....those who blindly accept whatever is fed to them as fact...... those who will not question what does not make sense..... those lemmings who will follow to the bitter end, without question, and without further thought.

Mark my words, there will come a person within the next ten or fifteen years who will revamp this conglomeration of various laws and systems of classifications into a user friendly hobby of die identification.....It will happen, but only as the old guard dogs die off, and the TPGs see revived potential in such an upgrade......This vamming thing needs a blood transfusion, and transfer to a system that people can actually understand and relate to will cause them to flock to the unparalleled size and beauty of the Morgan and Peace dollars.

As big of a mess as the classification and numbering is.....what in the world would cause you to think that anything should be correctly updated? I personally find it easier to believe that all of this confusion might be intentional......(vammers don't make waves Russ....it is not your place to question or think.....that will be done for you).

edited to add:

By the way, it might behoove you not to get caught talking to me (unless it is in staunch criticism of my views).....I am public enemy #1.

Wow, I do not envy you in your quest Russ.....Isn't such a thing rather like Sasquatch? Is this gougeless reverse known to actually exist? If so, does not LVA keep notes or a log on who owned the discovery piece?

PS...As you can see from the bulk of what I have posted today, wine in the morning was probably not a good judgment call on my part, but that is just me speaking from the heart. Such a coin without this gouge probably shares its reverse with yet another VAM, further entangling an already highly confusing mess.

The Vam-6 no gouge is said to have the same reverse die as the VAM 6c and 6d and I bought one in PCGS plastic AU 58 today. The Vam-6 no gouge is said to be a very late die state of the Vam-6c and the Vam-6d is the multiple clashed version. I will need to have my Vam-6 sent back before grading to compare them both.

It is said that the VAM 6 is a very late repolished die of the 6c and the 6d the 6d was beat up (clashed) pretty bad.

I don't know if it helps my spirit 1893.....but it sure does alter it.....sort of a (Jekyll and Hyde kinda thing).

Yeah Russ, that does seem to be the case....'everything' and anything with 'nothing'.......however, I still would think that there should be some substantiating characteristic for the claim of such an illogical scenario of events.....Does your coin have polishing marks that the 6C & 6D do not? The mentality of making such claim based on polishing marks that may or may not be on your coin (and not on the coins known as 6C & 6D) is a rather reckless one.....polishing can come or go at any point in the life of a die.....there must be some specific features that link your coin to that of this 6C & 6D, otherwise, this may just be yet another rogue reverse coupling.

Wait a minute though.....silly me, I completely forgot that vamming has nothing to do with dies, but is based strictly on similarities between coins, so realistically, anything could be claimed without any sort of substantiation.

I don't know why I continually attempt to make all of this stuff harder than it really is.....blind acceptance of the words of people (who are surely far more intelligent) is all that is necessary to be a competent vammer....I guess that my biggest problem is that I have never allowed myself to be herded.....(I have an inherent fear of cliffs).

Those who don't look seldom find. Even when they bump in to what they are looking for, even then some don't notice and walk on by. There are those who are blind but refuse to see.