If I Cried Out

I'm trying very hard to understand, but frankly, some of your recent posts have been, well, cryptic. A thread which you posted here a couple of days ago was moved to General Discussion because it seemed to be all about philosophy...


I'm trying hard, here, too, but in this particular thread, I can't really see one. The closest I can come to a specific VAM question in your post is this:


I think you're trying to ask, "Why do VAMs have their own section of the forum, and other types of error coins do not?". If that's your question, the answer is twofold: some people who were interested in VAMs asked for a separate VAM section, and the forum administrators agreed to having one.

It probably helped to have a couple of the moderators on-side - at least two of the mods here are VAManiacs. Back when the forum began (and long before I joined), a couple of the founding moderators were Australians, so the forum was designed with a large Australian section.

When the general US Errors forum gets so busy that those interested in other particular error series can't find threads that are relevant to them, then it might be time to ask CCF admin to consider splitting it again. But it would help if the admin or moderators themselves were interested in the topic and could see the worthiness of such a cause.

Zee posts "Questions are continually asked and either met with silence or ignorant response." I would add, or derision by some.
But if you are to be a variety specialist, it is incumbent upon you to know how the coins were minted, the processes that were involved and about care and maintenance to fully understand what you are looking at relative to such things as a die breaks, Cuds, die polish lines, pitting, die cracks, misplaced digits, mint mark placement, die doubling, Strike Doubling, filled dies, grease strike-thru's, lamination, planchet flaws, die basining, culls, planchet striations, clashed letters, clash marks, clash episodes and ruptured fields to name just a few.
Vamming is cutting edge numismatic forensics that involves all of the above and also identifying the different dies and die marriages.
Where it gets murky in this hobby is not everyone agrees with the methodology on how this is to be done.
Recently some in the hobby such as John Roberts (1878-CC attribution guide) and Alan Scott (1902-O and 1904-O attributions guides)have taken to cataloging specific date and mint marks. This painstaking approach involves comparing side-by-side coins of the same date and mint mark which helps in identifying specific die markers and specific die marriages. This really helps clarify the VAM mosaic.
Many question why this is being done. I will not reveal who said this but the answer perfectly summed up my feeling on the subject.
"because I'll have gotten exactly what I wanted in the first place - the enduring preservation of the VAM system."
It is only natural to ask questions. Finding the answers to those questions isn't easy.

The basic premise of vamming is some date and mint marks while rare are more rare with specific die marriages.
An example:

1878-CC VAM-7A Medium CC, Clashed
Discovered by Mark Kimpton, May 2004.

This coin is a Kimpton 12 Morgan VAM.

7A II 8 · B2d (Medium CC, Clashed Obverse G & st) ( ? ) I-2 R-7
Obverse II 8-- Clashed die with faint partial incuse G of God from reverse next to Liberty head neck and partial incuse st of Trust from reverse showing in right hair vee of lower hair edge.

If you were to ask a collector or dealer what the rarest Carson City dollar is, you are likely to hear these dates: 1879-CC, 1889-CC, 1893-CC. Talk with most VAM enthusiasts, and 1885-CC VAM-4 Hot-50 might come up and a few may bring up 1884-CC VAM-7A or 1890-CC VAM-9A. However, one of the best kept secrets is this coin, the 1878-CC VAM-7A, one of only two R-7 Carson City dollars. it is exceptionally rare. It was discovered by Mark Kimpton in May 2004.

It has a lot of interesting features. Above the eagle and motto, nearly the entire bottom of the central Liberty bust is distinctly clashed. This is not at all common. As would be expected to go along with that there is an M (designer's initial) clash.

The best part is last. This is an exceptionally strong clash with transfers on both sides. Recently, New Orleans dollars were found with clashed O mint marks on the obverse. Well, Carson City, a branch mint, also has a mint mark. In the area above B on the obverse, many believe the CC mint mark has been transfered there.
So far this coin is very difficult to locate. While I wouldn't be caught up in the discussion of it having an "R" 7 rating, I would be caught up in knowing this is an exceptional find for the money. Furthermore,
I would let out a cry of joy as well if I found one of these uncirculated for common money.

I think it is more from the constant ying-yang abrasiveness of two competing interests, those who sell and those intent on research that is the big detriment to the hobby. While it is an uneasy symbiotic relationship, knowledge is power motto is not the kind of power envisioned by the founders of the hobby. Knowledge was to enlighten, to investigate, to be academic in nature. For the sellers it was nothing more than a vehicle to hype, over-hype, and grossly over-hype a product and make more money.

Sometimes, it is who you ask your question to that is more important than the question itself or the content of the question for it is that view given by that person that is given more credence whether that answer is credible or not. That is the agenda Aladinslamp was referring to.
Answers just aren't readily available. In part, because I don't think even the experts know the answers. In some cases, the experts haven't even thought of the question.

Zee, I love varieties. It is a very pleasurable pursuit for me to investigate and research the Morgan dollar. I have always admired the Morgan dollars for their intrinsic beauty and historical significance, but being able to VAM coins has taken that pursuit in to an entirely new direction that is both fresh and exciting.

Before there was a hobby called vams, there were always competing interests in numismatics, always tilted towards the dealers.

Those competing interests are alive and well inside of this hobby. Make no mistake, if you are going to be a serious vammer you need to learn to identify and swim with the sharks otherwise they will eat you alive. (metaphorically speaking)

This part of the hobby I have learned to live with and accept. What I have issues with and disappointed in are the stalwarts in the hobby who fail to share their knowledge. I don't begrudge them this, it is their right to share or not to share, but then when these very people question why isn't the hobby growing? I just shake my head in wonder.

There is a steep learning curve withs vams. People entering into the hobby need to be mentored and helped otherwise this hobby will always be more geared toward the advanced collector than a beginning collector.
I have the good fortune to have two VAM mentors who have also become dear friends. We share a lot of information.
But let me ask a difficult question. How many bad coins and bad deals have to occur before people wise up? What happens to those people who have little or no recourse to the buyer?
The answer is, the buyers dry up (as they should) and the hobby stagnates.
I can't tell someone what they should buy or how much they should spend. I will say this: learn as much as you can about a coin before buying and buyer beware. There are people who are more than happy to help separate you from your money.

Dave, With all respect, VAMworld is probably the greatest repository of VAM knowledge on the planet. However, I am of the opinion much of the data is flawed. Flawed in this respect, the major pick up points (pups) on the coin are missing. Now some might ask, is that by accident or design?
Sharing valuable pick up points is a troublesome subject as many understand and unabashedly state it is a delicate balancing act. Most stalwarts will not, have not shared these pick up points even in their publications. There are exceptions of course, John Roberts and Alan Scott both share all of the information.

The reason is dealers buy these at common money and sell them for many multiples over common money. Some collectors finance their hobby doing this.

In a recent thread, someone posted six 1901-O VAM 39 A. Doubled Top Reverse, Clashed Obverse I & us (Super CD: Elite Clashed Morgan dollars. VAMview price in mint state 63 is two thousand five hundred dollars.

I want to, and feel that I do (at times) agree with you both Dave & Terry.....but just what is this knowledge that you both refer to? Is it the ability to distinguish and identify the differences between two coins of the same date and mintmark? I see these sorts of games in children's magazines.....two pictures, can you pick out the differences? I see absolutely no knowledge in any of this.....How can this sort of thing be shared or taught? Many times the newcomer's expectations are greater than the reality of what knowledge exists......

If this is the definition of knowledge, then I would be inclined to believe that it is the responsibility of each individual to study and do their own homework, or to find a mentor, a tutor, and learn from that person alone.....I realize that some of these differences are so subtle that mentoring may be required, but what I see as the biggest inherent drawback to the hobby is that foremost internet site itself.....To come on any site and demand answers without getting dirt under your own fingernails is just as selfish as those who may be accused of withholding information.....I am neither dealer or collector, merely an observer so I might see things in a totally naive manner.

Just as our national government and the principles on which it was based were noble and our best friend in its beginnings, today it has deteriorated into what we now perceive as the greedy, unconscionable enemy.....the people remain with values and morality, but the government does not represent them, because those founding principles have been abandoned for the self serving interests of those who we rely on to represent us.

Based upon the original site intent and principles that Oz drew upon earlier, it is anything but that now.....The majority of the members remain good people with values and personalities that are congenial, sharing and welcoming, however, this fact is overshadowed many times by overbearing, obnoxious personalities that have little to no tolerance for anyone other than themselves....there are others who will applaud those who give so much of themselves by updating the pages......The pages.....the pages that that still lack in pertinent photos and descriptive information and so match both the last and next listings......Is this the knowledge that you speak of? Is it the secret pups that the dealer relies upon for his/her livelihood, or is it merely an illusion to bolster status and ego and to be viewed as expertise?

I am sorry, but I just do not see this knowledge that is being withheld....rather, I believe that it is not being withheld, but it just doesn't actually exist.....If it does, please identify it to me, so that I too may know enough to choose sides and speak intelligently.

Fair enough. Partly, this:




Prices on many VAMs would fall drastically if more accurate population data were known. It's the people who have enough of them, and have seen enough of them, to form an educated guess as to true rarity, and they're the ones suppressing it to keep value artificially high so they can make more money.

This, along with the "compensation for fair research" issue, are probably the two biggest problems.

Prices on many VAMs would fall drastically if more accurate population data were known. It's the people who have enough of them, and have seen enough of them, to form an educated guess as to true rarity, and they're the ones suppressing it to keep value artificially high so they can make more money.Logic dictates as more and more VAMs are located, identified, many will be surprised to find their once thought rare coin really isn't as rare as once perceived.

It is the issues of relative rarity and conditional rarity that will come into play.