| Author |
 Replies: 176 / Views: 14,990 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
These are the seven topics. Where is the hobby headed? What happens after Leroy is gone? What suggestions would you make to grow the hobby? The uneasy dealer/ collector symbiosis. How many VAM collectors are there? Are my vams really worth that much? The very premise of vamming: Real or just another way to over-hype and over value coins? It is only natural a collector will reflect on these subjects and ask these questions. The problem begins because it depends on who these questions are asked to. You see, these types of probative questions cause unease with the established VAM community. Why do you ask? is the common refrain I hear most often. I am curious is my answer. The reply next given is these are contentious issues and no one likes to talk about them. Why are they contentious issues? Well I can tell you a refrain I hear most often is I am chasing circular arguments without resolution. Why? Dynamics within the hobby are important to understand how it works and why? |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
your words are very true, the understanding of the overall dynamics are
a MUST for a vammer.. however it has presented itself on many occasions the "why's" are not open to debate......more so that these are perceived guidelines that have been mutually been implimented for the supposed "good of all"........pointing out imperfections is taken as attacks .....and stirring up trouble......to the effect that your either with us or against us attitude......let the little things slide as we have enough to think about already, without opening sore spots that have no definitive answer......one must wonder if we are working with a full deck, trick deck? or are there a few things going on we are not supposed to know about? just short of being plain and simple as things should be there is a bit of mystery ..
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5625 Posts |
OZ, I do not agree with your entire statement.
I know your knowledge foundation is strong and from what I have seen, YOU are an obviously experienced Vammer, that said, I come to this forum and others to discuss and take in what I can and seek to broaden MY knowledge and better my understanding in ANY Numismatic topic I feel could assist me.
I see the 7 topics YOU feel that merit no discussion," your opinion", I am of the schooling of EVERYONE has and is entitled to their opinions, that said, I feel if there is any topic I think would/could answer any questions I have pondered about, I will ask and seek answers about the same, "my opinion".
I am not in any way trying to argue this comment with you and hope you do not feel that way,I read something I saw used by a moderator here not long ago, "attack the comments, not the person" I just always felt a forum, especially a coin forum is the place the topics you have listed, all 7, is the a very good arena to place these questions out for comments from our fellow collectors/Numismatists.
I would gather the thread I posted about the LVA discussions is not what you would call a topic with any merit or reasoning behind it, I do not know that this is your feeling about my post, but being my posts title is one of the 7 you posted, would lead any common sensed person to arrive at that conclusion.
I did so to seek out opinions from others because to me from what I have read, and NOT read, between this forum and vw, I sought to find out for my self exactly where the facts would lead.
I actually can not believe the title to your posted comments as it is a very broad statement and have to wonder exactly why someone would chose 7 topics and state they have "NO MERIT" to discuss, I know on the other site I mentioned posts were completely deleted and as far as this site goes, I have always felt ANY Numismatic related,( or not ) question is exactly why the forum is here, to live, learn, obtain knowledge and use the same to enhance our facts in this hobby.........We all have opinions and the fact that you have yours and I apparently have my own, I would respectfully agree to disagree with you .........
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
Quote:
I am chasing circular arguments without resolution.
Why? That is the best way I have seen to explain why I stay away from most topics like the ones listed |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
Not that I am superstitious but I did not like the number of posts by my name  |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Easy Mike....I intuitively sense a very strong flavor of sarcasm in Oz's thread topic and opening post....I think that in reality, you both share pretty much the same feelings. edited to add: Very, very well put Gene....I totally relate to your words. I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about Russ... Edited by zeewool
12/17/2010 12:57 am
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
there are a few of those topics that you have mentioned that I believe definitely merit a response and should be answered on a coin forum if someone has those questions. That is exactly what these types of coin forums are here for, to answer questions one may have about their collections or a series they are interested in. I guess it is kind of my motto that there is no stupid questions except for the one unasked because if you don't know something you should ask someone that does and it can only help the hobby in the future because sometime down the road the one person that does know the answer will have educated someone else and if that person is gone then the one learning can answer the next one who has the same question
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
709 Posts |
I feel these discussions have absolute merit. The seven topics I listed were the 'stone walls' I hit in the hobby and judging from what has been posted all feel the same way I do.
All of these questions at some point or other I asked in my evolution of learning to be a vammer. Most were never answered or barely acknowledged. I hope these topics get explored and throughly vetted. I have spent a good deal of time exploring these topics. Some answers were difficult to find and others were difficult to come to grips with. I hope I can answer some of those hard to answer questions I learned unlike when I was asking them.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5625 Posts |
This is an example of things being taken out of context? Since the ability to communicate by key board has brought an amazing futuristic way to convey our thoughts, it is very plain to see, things read, can take on Many meanings as opposed to simply speaking to one another! I love a good discussion, I just did not see the hidden agenda..... I hope for all to see, these topics find a resting place on THIS forum, inquiring minds need to know... Thanks ZEE.....
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
All seven of these potential topics seem to be biased in favor of what a struggling collector might ask.....To be perfectly fair and balanced, these same questions should be reformated to help the struggling dealer as well....For instance, the dealer might rephrase the questions as follows: Quote:
Where is the hobby headed? Where is my business headed? Quote:
What happens after Leroy is gone? Can sales flourish after Leroy is gone? Quote:
What suggestions would you make to grow the hobby? What suggestions would you make to grow my sales? Quote:
The uneasy dealer/ collector symbiosis. The uneasy dealer/ client symbiosis. How nice do I have to be to prospective buyers? Quote:How many VAM collectors are there? How many VAM buyers are there? Are there enough to go around? Quote:
Are my vams really worth that much? Am I undercharging for my stock? Quote:
The very premise of vamming: Real or just another way to over-hype and over value coins? The profit in vamming: What are some other ways to over-hype and over value coins? |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Seriously though...All of those questions are very interrelated (inbred, if you prefer). I recall over a year ago at a time when many, many threads revolved around cherry picks of coins for around $23...the replies and kudos would come pouring in about the coin being worth $1800 in some price guide...well....folks read this stuff, and the fever hits them like a freight train....they jump into vamming to make easy money....the ratio of dealer/collector has just increased.....I don't know what that ratio is today, but it probably isn't too healthy for either side of the fence....so hyping techniques such as inflated rarity/value must be employed (which accomplishes little more than to increase tensions from all vectors). Why is certain information so fiercely guarded? (Knowledge really is king, and kings amass their fortunes from the ignorance of their subjects)....Level playing fields are not desirable factors in any competitive business.....and this one is highly competitive. (Just a few observations and thoughts from an outsider).... edited to add: While I see the vast majority of the problems that envelope vamming as a direct result of the dealer/collector relationship, I am really not trying to drive the wedge between them even deeper, but merely attempting to point out that there could be a happy place for both when the hard core, big time dealers dry up and evaporate...There are not a lot of them, but in my opinion, they are the root cause of all of these questions.....They are responsible for the lack of transparency within the hobby....Collectors really need to gain control of their own hobby, and let the dealers control only their own businesses rather than rule both sides of the fence. Quote:
and the fever hits them like a freight train The two strains of fever that hit the dealer and the collector manifest themselves in stark contrast of each other....like day and night, like fire, like ice....It would not be fair to judge the dealer for submitting to primeval urges, and I do not....some of my favorite vamming folks are dealers, but their urges have overtaken the inner character of who they were before they began to see only the $$$....and this has an affect on how I view them. Edited by zeewool
12/17/2010 12:08 pm
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The reason that these topics are "deadly sins:"
Most fear the future. All realize that, some day, the answers to these questions will be known. Some have a vested interest in delaying that day; others want it to happen now.
Nobody knows how long it will take, but a few realize the day will be hastened by the simple act of having the discussion.
Let's talk.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
Let's talk. Okay !! How do you define the difference between a dealer and a collector? Collectors will often sell duplicates or sell in favor of upgrades. Dealers will often hold a small personal collection. So what is the defining characteristic? To me, this is pretty difficult sometimes, but using the term "stock" is pretty much a red flag....national travel to hit all the shows is another pretty good indicator, as is having a table at same, so is owning your own website or ebay store.....Folks who refer to price guide value could lie in either camp, (but my suspicions are aroused)....Once you have identified someone as a dealer rather than collector, do your perceptions about this person change? Has a certain degree of trustworthiness been compromised by this revelation? |
|
Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
The line between collector and dealer blurs for me, and indeed for the purpose of whatever point we may be contending, probably doesn't matter. A collector of sufficiently-impaired morals can have just as solid a reason as a similar dealer to withhold information. I have purchased something like 300-ish Morgans in my time. I own maybe 30 now. The rest have been resold or gifted. Am I a dealer? Strictly speaking, yes. In my heart, I'm a collector whose collection resides on a moving conveyor belt, running underneath my camera.  What is the specific contention offered? |
|
Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
Oz is on the road to go pick up his mother in law for the holidays, a day there and another to get back and then he'll start posting again.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Contention neither implied or solicited Dave....I was merely exercising my jaw and finger muscles and inviting others to do the same... By the way, I'm not buying that "Am I a dealer? Strictly speaking, yes." crap for one minute.. ..you would not be able accomplish what may be necessary to complete a sale with the unsuspecting or unenlightened....I believe that you would first feel compelled to disclose everything and enlighten the prospective buyer prior to sale.....(no, you definitely would not be a good salesman Dave). Thanks for the update Smitty....I was beginning to wonder if I might have said something to cause him to boycott (even his own thread) if I was posting on it. |
| |
Replies: 176 / Views: 14,990 |
Posted 12/17/2010 12:30 am
