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 Replies: 42 / Views: 3,825 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
I hadn't noticed the abrasion on the top denticles of this 85-O. Has me rethinking my MS-64 grade a bit. How are these coins typically dipped? Might that be a mark from a device used to hold the coin as it is swished around..? Seems odd that the top denticle would have a big abrasion or wear while the rest of the coin is largely problem/wear free.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5638 Posts |
The obverse at 12 has the "wear' and yet the opposite spot on the reverse is problem free, IMO, Just some damage from w/e and really do not think the coin was dipped from "that" spot. I also have no clue as to the process of dipping a coin, never did....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
The 1885-O varies from Full to Flat strikes, but most are flatly struck on High Points. Also the 85-O generally has Good Luster. On the Reverse the Eagle looks good but a little weak, I use the talons and the breast feathers as markers usually. The Obverse appears to have wear above the eye although it could be from rubbing around in the bags. Cotton Bolls look a little weak, also looks like wear above and below ear. Denticles show wear and dirt. Luster is not the best....AU58... I really have a hard time judging photos.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3076 Posts |
Thanks for all of your posts so far..When I first started collecting back in the early 60's, it was the eye of the beholder, and didn't know squat about all of the little things that distract or take a coins grade down....Back then they were UNC,BU and GEM BU...Things have changed a lot since then...even today we see that THE YEAR has A TREMENDOUS effect as to how the TPG's look at any given coin, and the accepted BOOK descriptions of how many dings from MS65 to MS 60 do not apply....EVEN though there are tons of GRADED coins with "marks aplenty" that fit into someones evaluation... Which is why I started this thread, many look and have the "first impression and start from MS65 GEM and work there way down, looking for any small thing and quickly it deteriorates to AU....But the Other NEED TO KNOW WHY..Is the fact that many post on the grading side, with "Horrid" pictures. That no one can truly see let alone evaluate its grade, and yet many high grades are given....AGAIN this is why I think the collective body here can really help others to gain some insight as what we need to focus on to truly access a grade...... In a few moments I will post additional photo's, as this is the best way to see the coin in hand, I can't capture the toning as I would like to..for my equipment I'm happy that I get good enough photo's......Thanks again for all your reply's.. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
No updates or opinions? these photo's are tilted left and right to show details that will not show up, from a straight shot...often and ebay photo technique.... I care not for the grade, but rather the understanding of the grade from ONE...the straight shot one see's most online.... and the multiple photo's that show the coins overall condition that is seldom shown online.....an angled shot with more light hides details.... |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
OK, I'll bite.
MS64. Very old cleaning, toned since, would slab. Slightly misaligned dies; maybe it was the planchet itself.
Older obverse die paired with a fairly fresh reverse die; the "wear" seen over the ear and on the cotton bolls is not matched by corresponding reverse wear in the breast where I expect to see it first. The only reverse strike artifact is in the talons - breast, largest wreath leaves, legs, top wing edges all show nice detail. The obverse is *slightly* weak; the only way to make a pair like that is with an old obverse die. Frankly, the bottom curls of the hair between right stars 2 & 3 are what lean me towards a worn obverse die.
I do not like AU58. For any coin. It makes no sense. You see a shiny new coin? You save it for the future. You see a worn coin you like? You save it for the future.
You circulate a coin for two weeks and then save it? Um, no. I believe the vast majority of AU58's are Mint State coins with strike artifacting, which just happen to also have been exposed to environmental circumstances. Maybe they dropped it on the floor, leading to marks which don't jibe with bag damage. Maybe an old die just didn't impart as much luster as it used to. Maybe it sat in a cedar chest rather than a maple one, or a newer box which hadn't finished outgassing its' veneer.
A thousand things can alter a coin which have nothing to do with circulation or originality. Far too many to compartmentalize, however much we, as numismatists, would like to pigeonhole it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
I'll stick with MS-64 as well don't see anything in the new photos that seriously changes my original opinion.
I do see Morgan's Dad's concerns with the coin, however. It's definitely a slider.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Very Important facts. SD..I am not defending THIS coin,,,I put this coin up as it has.....nice details But some would discount from MS65 the perfect coin as to the guides...WE WILL NOT GO into MS 66 or 67 or 68 here...In fact ....., back me down here...TPG;s have there own grading standards...but when your in the field and looking at coins, WE have all looked at the Photo grade and such... and MS Photo'are not among them.... can you guess why?If you could put MS grades on photos..and why they do or not make a grade, it would be all to simple...and no need now for as INNOCENT BYSTANDER The TPG's makes the call.... But If I was to think that the TPG's were the only ones who can give a grade .. it devalues our eyes....YOU have no idea of what the grade is..NOT SO...even when grading is subjective,,,, |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I have my own opinion of grading. Yes, it came in part from what I've seen TPG's do. It also came in part from what I've seen, holding coins in my hand. I own Photograde, I have years of the Red Book, been there, done a fair amount of that. But it's still my opinion. Not the TPG's, and I don't care what their slab says. I form my own opinion. That opinion is evolving. It won't be the same tomorrow as it is today. One must constantly evolve one's standards - grow, not set down roots. Question everything, most importantly yourself, but always trust the answer. This is a (weak) MS64 coin. Not because you said so, not because PCGS said so. I said so. You or someone else might think I'm wrong, and one of you may be right. Or maybe I am. And that's the point of this thread. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
My point of this thread.....I care not for the grade of this coin...
What id do care for is the analisys (our thoughts)by which ANY COIN for ANY year is given....General concepts do not apply...but these general concepts are our governing rules...and true as the are there is always exceptions...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
We need to look at the reverse first and weight it higher. If the breast feathers, legs, and talons are all strong 99.9% of the time the coin is MS. No need to start nit picking wing edges or denticles if those high points are all pristine, intact, and covered with original luster. For this 1885-O, the eagle on the reverse is practically Cameo it's just screaming MS + original luster. Breast feathers, legs, talons rock solid. On the obverse, like 95% of Morgan dollars below MS-65, there's some weakness on the hair. It's shelf-like in appearance which strongly suggests strike. On this 1885-O, there's some toning on the surface of those flat shelf-like points of strike weakness that shows up when the coin is tilted. No big deal. As Dave mentions, it was probably dipped years ago and retoned ; that's not going to hold back a Morgan dollar from MS-64. |
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Posted 01/06/2011 4:43 pm
