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 Replies: 425 / Views: 38,445 |
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Valued Member
Canada
62 Posts |
Nice looking coin and presentation, though reverse-proof finish would be more apt than specimen. As for demand on ebay, a large number of ebay buyers may neither be Canadian nor hold a credit card - both requirements for purchasing through the Mint directly (i.e. ebay allows payment by PayPal). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Good point defone, I didn't think about that. Yes payment methods play a role.
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Valued Member
Canada
62 Posts |
Re: Legal Tender
To my knowledge, and I believe this is stated widely in the public domain: no retailer, bank, etc is legally required to accept anything and everything considered 'legal tender'; a local retailer, at least, has as much discretion in accepting coins like these as they do any paper money.
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
dialog_gvf: I take it you are NOT a lawyer or judge. "Authorized by the Government of Canada" means nothing legally. I do not know why the mint used these terms. They are throw away terms. The mint does state and I quote: "This new Canadian silver commemorative coin is legal tender with a value of $20. It is available for the official price of only $20. You simply exchange $20 from your wallet for a $20 coin of pure 99.99% silver." I have bolded a legal term. Thus - yes you can pay your parking tickets, bring it to the bank etc... If they refuse, you tried to pay your debt and they didn't want your money - legally. ---- At my local TD and RBC they take NCLT at face which I try to buy when it comes in. Whoever said their banks wouldn't accept the coins maybe has a poor and uninformed bank. I would be worried about dealing with a bank that doesn't understand the laws regarding money. Seriously, I would not use them - NCLT aside. Credit cards are NOT legal tender. Your checks are NOT legal tender. ---- From the Bank of Canada. "What is "legal tender"? In Canada, it is coins issued by the Royal Canadian Mint and paper money issued by the Bank of Canada. Payment methods must be mutually acceptable to both parties (e.g. credit or debit card, cheque). Therefore, retailers do not break the law if they refuse bills." Retailer level laws are different. Though my local corner store has a "special" slot in the till where they put the "special" coins. YMMV. Banks and debtors are not exempt from the law - this is my understanding. ---- From Wikipedia (take it with a grain of salt): "In some jurisdictions legal tender can be refused as payment if no debt exists yet. Consequently vending machines and transport staff do not have to accept the largest denomination of banknote for a single bus fare or bar of chocolate, and even shopkeepers can reject large banknotes. However, restaurants that do not collect money until after a meal is served would have to accept that legal tender for payment of the debt incurred in purchasing the meal. The right, in many jurisdictions, of a trader to refuse to do business with any person means a purchaser cannot demand to make a purchase, and so declaring a legal tender other than for debts would not be effective." ---- The currency act (the law): http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/st...-c-c-52.htmlSubsection 2.1 is relevant to this coin. A bank could accept only one by law at a time, though in practice I think they would take them all in a single transaction. --- In summary. If you can't afford to have $60 tied up in coins don't buy. If you can afford and cash flow allows - do you want that $20 on paper or 1/4oz silver? Answer the question for yourself. Edited by realpenny
02/07/2011 6:35 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
85 Posts |
According to my bank manager, the bank will accept this coin at face value, just as it would accept a $50.00 gold coin at face value. Whenever the Royal Canadian Mint put a face value on a coin, that is the amount it is worth at the chartered banks in Canada. According to this manager, this has always been the practice in Canada. The one ounce silver maple leaf is worth $5.00 at a bank because that is its face value. I would love to get some of those $50.00 gold coins or $5.00 silver coins in my change the next time I cash a cheque at the bank. |
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
^^^ coinsolder: Ask if they have any collector coins. If you know a teller she may set them aside for you. Last week I got $63 pre-loony dollars. Only two were silver. Got them all at face. The nickel dollars I spend. I have no trouble spending them at stores, most people think they are worth a lot of money. If someone is unsure I just pull out a bill and pay that way.
Edited by realpenny
02/07/2011 6:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
> dialog_gvf: I take it you are NOT a lawyer or judge. "Authorized by the Government of Canada" means nothing legally. I do not know why the mint used these terms. They are throw away terms.
Nope, neither. I agree, they are throw away terms. The interesting thing is this offering is so full of these terms.
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
You watch!----It wont be to long, they the ( Royal Canadian Mint),will be calling a piece of plastic legal tender, as a coin! You watch that's next.  ---IMO--- ---I think, the RCM should not have used the term Legal tender as they did, even though it may be technically, I feel it's a play on words, as it was presented and IMO is somewhat misleading for some and will cause disagreements. Some may think that means it's currency when it's not. Big difference! Not everybody asks a lawyer! ---I also feel, this whole thing is being blown out of proportion and that it is being further fueled by some for financial gain, they both are sort of like, flocking the sheep. ---I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of the commercial coins the RCM puts out, but will say, that some are really nice piece's of art. ---I guess my biggest problem with them here is, there method. They really turned me off when they referred to it as a commemorative coin when it's not. That was the first deception, then the play with legal tender and it's emphasis. ---The way I see this coin now, is nothing more than a novelty coin that has the Queens bust on it, with no disrespect to the Queen because, I Served in her name.  ---I will say further, if one should cross my way, I would say No thanks! and will not be ordering one. --- I'll take a tarnished old penny first for $20 and know it will hold it's value and go up! ---Anybody paying more than $20 for it? well it's your money! --- Next subject! 
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
^^^ It is funny that when the RCM produces a fiat backed by a small amount of silver you say the RCM is producing a novelty and mention plastic next? Why not say the mint is stepping in the right direction. Silver is volatile right now and the mint has no choice to but to set the fiat price higher than the silver. People would melt it down if the two valves got to close or hoard it. It also stops foreign poaching of coins... other counties suffer from this harshly. I hope Canada continues this in greater numbers and can slowly find a "seignorage" percentage where silver market manipulation would keep our coins safe and being spent yet backed by something more physical. If we had enough of this "money" maybe other countries would want to hold Canadian dollars instead of the US dollar. At least if our paper bills tanked, they would have the ~%39 of their money left in silver value. I would like to slowly see the 39% valve increase to about 80% but with the global stock markets it is too easy to "play" with silver prices. It is a smart move by the RCM for many reasons and with the silver backing it looks very attractive to foreign investors to hold our "money". We have seen what can happen to a US dollar bill (paper) and it's valve. I would like to see this every year and in greater numbers and people spending them. It will keep our currency strong and heading in the right direction. If this is the RCM plan they would be light years ahead of the US system. The RCM and Bank of Canada can use the word legal tender all they want by LAW, not by their opinion. You are right not everybody asks a lawyer or looks things up... those people usually pay for it though when a "disagreement" happens. Any store can reject your $20 bill as not real currency - by law there is nothing you can do about it. I think you missed the whole point of learning about the facts of money in general and this coin and just wanted to give your opinion which seems to be based on nothing except what you like or don't like - which is truly worthless. I have lots of old tarnished pennies - how many $20 bills do you have? I'll trade you them all day long. Edited by realpenny
02/08/2011 02:36 am
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
Hey! realpenny
---I know I said goodbye, but I didn't close the subscription and got your reply. Glad I didn't and now I'm leaving it on.
---*Noted*! you have some points, but I have mine both right or wrong. This is a forum, in which everybody has an opinion and has a right to it, that's it's purpose! to exchange opinions, thoughts and knowledge, not insults.
---There is no need to take a personal shot, saying my opinion is worthless, because you disagree and is uncalled for.
---Who are you to say that? I would not say that about you even though, I don't agree with you!
---I choose to have civil dialogue, how about you?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Evidently, NCLTs have the tendency to draw attention and debate in general. The debate is further increased by this novelty coin because it also brings another dimension to the mix: the notion of money. Money (and sex and religion) are forbidden topics at social gatherings for a reason... Money matters cause more divorces than anything else. So not too surprisingly, we have an explosive situation here. I remember my parents having heated debates with their elders as they perceived profit as a sin. It might have been caused by their catholic up bringing, I am not sure. This was Quebec circa '60 and I think there are still remnants of this mentality today, perhaps in a different form. Some will just not accept the notion of profit and that is quite fundamental because it separates two distinct political views; socialism and capitalism. Here again, the fact that the RCM seeks to make a profit will draw a lot of heat. In the early days of our colonies in North America many coins from other countries circulated and were used in trading. Trading tokens, playing cards, banks had their own money. Intrinsic value (metal content) was a common basis to evaluate the trading value. Here too, some people still think today that the trading token should 'hold its weight in gold'. Of course this is wishful thinking because there isn't enough gold on earth to hold all the circulating debts. For all these reasons, this $20 will evoke frustration, fear, discontent and misunderstanding. |
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Valued Member
Canada
276 Posts |
... What's all this talk about Fiat money? You know iceland does 95% of it's commerce with bank cards, and there are stores that don't even accept cash.
It's quite amusing to hear people argue that money is worthless. In terms of what it is made "of", Sure. But considering what people will pay to get it, it isn't any more or less worthless than anything else you can buy. In fact, money holds value better than many things, including furniture and almost every consumer good.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote:
Silver is volatile right now and the mint has no choice to but to set the fiat price higher than the silver. People would melt it down if the two valves got to close or hoard it. I don't usually get into Canadian coin discussions since I don't know much about them but this thing "people would hoard them" really confused me because I thought that was the whole reasoning behind the NCLT coins, they were meant to be "hoarded" and not spent. Is my thoughts wrong on this? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Hi Bryan, you are correct for 99% of the time.
But take the 1976 Olympic coins for instance. The Mint made so many of them that they never had any significant numismatic value (the proof coins maybe) so what's to do? Speculate on the silver... and that's what people have done. Just like silver coins of the 60s. So people hoard them.
But what happens when silver content dips below face value? People want to spend them, and that's what they did in the early 90s.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
> I thought that was the whole reasoning behind the NCLT coins
But, with precious metal NCLT, the face value is well below bullion value. This $20 coin is starting out with the FV well above the bullion value. It's completely opposite. And, that makes a legal tender exchange far more likely.
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Posted 02/07/2011 3:59 pm
