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 Replies: 58 / Views: 5,171 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Is anyone familiar with a die clash VAM on this yr./m.m. morgan where the reverse olive leaves clash on the lips/chin and mouth of liberty ? Also a clash on liberty where the neck meets the throat. The leaves clash look like sharp teeth in her mouth and on the lip and upper chin. Just noticed it today on a morgan I picked up. Only a VF max. coin but pretty pronounced. Thanks |
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New Member
United States
28 Posts |
Actually Indian1, there are a few. The clash on the lips is also called spiked lips. Now the clash on the neck, if that shows letter transfer, that would be very good. For spiked lips, try VAM-36 and Vam-36A. Hope this helped...kenny
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3640 Posts |
Hi and thanks. Image is a scan and does not show much. Actually the spikes are sharper in hand than the scan. Matches right up though with the 36. Date does not match though. Then there is the clash in the neck. Also a die chip inside the lower loop of the 1st 8 in date. H'mmm, No biggie VAM anyway (if a 36/34A) but different.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I would examine the coin more for other signs ,,,,,an entire photo could help of OVB and REV..While some times the spike lips are mentioned other times they are not....compare the other clashed coins features with the one you have...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Hi
There is no other clashed coin listed for this year/m.m. that I know of
with the spikes. Thanks
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Keep in mind, any variety known to have clashing could have an "early" stage which shows stronger features than we know of. As soon as clashed dies start striking new coins, they start wearing. Clashes, being generally weaker than design features, will wear away much faster. We're still in "tip of the iceberg" mode with much VAM research. Just because a given clashed variety is not yet known to have a "very strongly clashed" stage doesn't mean it won't be discovered in the future. Furthermore, if the Mint caught a clashed die, pulled it from service and polished away the clashing quickly enough, you could conceivably have a coin which is not yet known in a clashed stage. Scenario: A Mint worker striking coins observes a clash to occur while running the press. Not having a new die handy, they call for another die while still striking coins as there's a production quota which doesn't lend itself to being down for a half-hour. Perhaps another press or two is currently down, increasing the pressure to keep the remaining presses running. Somebody brings a new die, more or less quickly, and the old die is replaced to have the clashing artifacts polished out. Even if that happens 5 minutes after the initial clash, it's still as many as 450 coins struck while waiting for the new die. Heck, at 90 coins per minute, even if the press operator acted immediately to remove the clashed die a few coins could still be struck while they were acting to stop the press. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Dave
That makes sense. Did not even think much of the die stages.
I kind of figured with how there are so many Vams that just about every
one of them (stages included) have been found by now. Considering this coins wear (VF at the best) the strength of the clash/clashes must make it an EDS. Wish I could take nice close up pics. of all the attributes.
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New Member
United States
28 Posts |
Indian1; If you can, post a full obv and rev. Then a full date with point of neck showing(so to get the date position. Then mm with ribbon bow, so to get mm position. That's a start...kenny
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
I kind of figured with how there are so many Vams that just about every one of them (stages included) have been found by now. Not by a long shot Indian..... nobody has even the slightest idea how many more will surface.... hundreds, maybe thousands, it all depends on just how much time and energy is put forth by the collector and how far the attributor decides to let things go. Quote:
Considering this coins wear (VF at the best) the strength of the clash/clashes must make it an EDS Actually, without other examples of the same variety to compare your coin to, the clash is of no value whatsoever in determining die state..... A clash can occur at any time in the life of a die..... it can occur a split second before the first coin is struck, or a split second before the last coin is struck, or anywhere in between..... you really need other examples of your variety for comparison, and then take into consideration all of the factors that could affect a die at different stages of its life..... it really is not as much of an open and shut case as a lot of folks would have you think. |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
I would suggest you look at V22A. Might be a winner, maybe not. Lots of clashed Morgan dies, and so very few letter transfers.
That being said, zeewool is spot on regarding the die state issue. Need several coins of the same die marriage, set side-by-side to conclusively decide about state progressions.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5613 Posts |
To whom it may concern: I have to dis-agree with the statement " Quote: I kind of figured with how there are so many Vams that just about every one of them (stages included) have been found by now." I by a very long shot feel this could not be further than the truth, I have been doing some die state studies for some time, and actually am very involved in such that I am seeing things That I never knew,which is not all that much anyway, LOL, and I believe the die states KNOWN, are just the beginning of the Actual Known die states "listed". I am not even talking about the unknown "dies" NOT found yet, keeping in mind there were 2-NEW B-1 Reverses found last year with-in 2-months and not since 1965 has this happened with one new die discovery, much less two. I personally believe MANY more coins with new or unknown dies and or, especially die states are yet to be located, I will even go so far to say, I believe there already attributed coins out there that I believe are not what they are labeled.( I do not think this is news ). Zee, I would like to point out there is more than a good chance Ron's coin can be traced to either a EDS or LDS, OR ULDS coin simply from die forensics, checking to make sure the coins die is known "exactly" and research other known same die coins, with PUP'S, die markers and IMO, one could deduce whether or not 1st they are the same die. 2ndly by doing comparison studies on the coins I believe you could say with a better than reasonable degree of certainty, if the coin being studied is an EDS, LDS,ULDS or different die altogether......... I am sure people with a better surrounding of knowledge and familiarity than I would chime in and give their experienced opinions...Of course this is just my opinion. PS, ZEE, NOT accepting incomming....  Edited by Morgans Dad
02/22/2011 8:29 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Thanks by the way for the overlay (morgan/peace dollars) Not sure who sent it either Coop or entiem ? That is a great tool. Been looking closer at this coin and even though not a high grade it may have something going on with it other than just being a Vam36. Not being great at taking close up pics. or getting detail on my scans maybe someone can take a closer look at it in hand. I also just found what seems to be a large portion of the first 8 loop below it and down into the denticles. Date is exactly 2 dents. to the right of the neck point. M.M. is centered, looks slightly high, a tad C.W. rotation. Rev. "OF" - Top bar F serif disconnected and something up in the denticle directly above it. Starting to get pretty involved now :) like I mentioned earlier, if someone wants to take a look at it I can send it off. Thanks all again. Just wondering if worth the effort on this grade coin ? Maybe it does not matter the grade if a new die state or VAM is possible. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I have to agree with Morgans dad....even as more Vams are discovered it doesn't mean we don't have a clue to what is going on....many times they are simply attributions found in later or earlier die states of the same coins dies progression...Sometimes its found to be a new die pair combination....
THIS TOPIC is about an 1887-0. with just one photo....THE ONE THING we can all contribute is pictures of the whole...not just a snap shot of point in time in the coins progression...but the whole photo.....where all can be seen.....and we as a consortum can fit it into its reality....
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New Member
United States
28 Posts |
Indian1; I'm in NH, probably not to far away. You can send full scans if you like and we can go from there. Let me know...kenny
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
I will take some full scans and see what happens.
They will not show much but maybe someone will see something.
Thanks.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
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Replies: 58 / Views: 5,171 |
Posted 02/21/2011 8:55 pm
