| Author |
 Replies: 58 / Views: 5,175 |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
3640 Posts |
Thanks Morgansdad for the correct info on the overlay. And thanks all of you for your help. You all probably know this already but if you save the pics I posted to your comp's. then you can open them with a viewer like I mentioned so you can zoom in and enlarge the coin. I tried with my windows viewer and can see a lot more. Still not as good as in hand but ? Wish I could read what is stuck up in the denticles above the "F" (rev.) Also the M.M. does have a slight C.W. tilt to it. Other wise centered. High or not I do not know. Just my opinion here, but if one can find an existing VAM with both clash marks present (spikes and neck) that might take care of the obv. The rev. now is a diff. story. Like mentioned that is a little busy by itself. Then add to that (back to the obv.) that what is present in the denticles below the 1st 8 in the date. Not showing really in the pics. Wonder what this coin would of looked like when first punched. Probably would of made it easier or maybe not to identify. Oh well ! I started this, so I have to finish it now. If it gets too involved on this thread my offer still holds to send it to one of you more experienced silver forensic coin authorities :) |
|
Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Just trying to offer an opinion, not trying to stir things up. In my experience, based on the photo, I would not call the m/m shifted right. I don't think LVA would have called it that way. I do think I see a slight tilt to the right, but again, not sure it would have been called that way. This is the type of thing that can cause differences of opinions, as it has many times in the past.
That being said, the coin is well worn with bag/hit marks and wear that can skew/hide things. I hestitate to say anything about it with any certainty. I do not have the coin in hand, nor am I offering to look at it in hand. A coin this worn is just plain hard to attribute accurately based on photos, let alone in hand.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
I don't think LVA would have called it that way. Heh, heh, heh...... heh, heh..... heh..... In the past year and a half of reading many things that both you and LVA have stated, I've noticed a clear difference between the two of you, and the difference is this: You (Vfm), normally choose your words carefully, and project them with great articulation, into sentences that are sound in thought, logic, and consistency. Your statement that I quote above is out of character, and in my opinion, rather bold and reckless..... (Better for you to leave the being bold and reckless to someone like me)...  Sometimes Indian, a coin is worn to the point where (even in hand) the beholder can see things that just are not there.... not only does the eye/brain function play tricks, so will the wear on the coin.... Vfm is a vammer of extraordinary skill, and I wholeheartedly believe that if he cannot confidently tell you what your coin is (due to the wear factor), I highly doubt that there is anyone, anywhere, who can. (Being the bold and reckless type though, I'll stick with vam-13)...  |
|
Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Thanks zeewool (I think). I will take that as a compliment. That being said, I do not agree with everything just because it is in the Big VAM Book, or Supplements. There was a time when I disagreed with Leroy that even my friends were in shock and horror that I would question him or disagree. "Leroy is the final word, period" I would hear. I said bunk. How many times have I got Leroy to change his mind with coins in hand and logical persuasion? Many. I think, repeat think, that I have won my friends over to understanding that people, including Leroy, will see things differently than many/several others of us. That's okay, because we are all human and can agree to disagree at times, at least in sensible forums. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
I will have to agree with Zeewool overall.
The fact that the coin is worn was one reason I was
not even going to post it in the first place. But a few things caught my eye about it so I wanted some opinions. Hope no offense here to anyone but I normally only check coins listed in the top 100, 50, 40,
kimpton,clashed etc. And then usually only if min. AU. I just started
vamming about 7 yrs. ago and I can see it is a full time endeavor.
Kudos to you guys who go all out on it just like others who specialize
in others coins, varieties etc. I am getting an MS62/63 raw 1890-O comet ready for sale/auction on here for a friend so I think I will just pop this one up for auction also at melt start bid.
Been very interesting reading and as always have learned more.
Thanks all. Maybe one of you can have some fun with the coin.
One thing for sure is that it will not get any more wear on it from now until ?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Vfm.....Take my words as complimentary if you wish, but I don't sprinkle false compliments around.... I call 'em like I see 'em...... It is just the way I see you, that's all. While many a folk are greatly impressed by your VAM prowess, I am not.... You are a rouge.... a fearless rouge, and that is what gains you my respect.... I am not impressed by lemmings, but rather those who I consider to be lions. (Expect me to be disappointed if you fail to take issue with some of the more provocative things that I might lay down in future threads). edited to add: I have already had fun with the coin Indian.... thanks to you for allowing me to join in. Edited by zeewool
02/23/2011 10:43 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I believe....ITS NOT VAM 13....for 2 important reasons that do not add up with the previous arguments......one...the clash is in the wrong rotation for a "G" clash and the MM is high as noted but I think centered.......I think this is a "new varitety"......every "G" clashed coin I have or see...the clash is found "ABOVE" the jaw line and the neck "joint" where the neck and jaw meet... the mint mark as Zee so points out can be photographicaly impaired... meaning the angle of the photo can make it appear as if it is left or right....up or down....That's why Russ is taking photo's front and center to take the angle out of the equation....I think every one can see its a HIGH MM...with no question....here is the expanded photo....  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
Ron,
I am glad to help,With out Coop this would not be possible, I hope you had time to see the varying degrees these Morgans can exhibit from a good clash, also, just because it is NOT listed does not mean it is new, I am not sure if you understand my meaning, but, like stated before, once clashed the transferred images slowly are removed with every coin struck after the initial clash, lending it self to many die states of visual descriptions, till it is just no longer there.......VFM, I like your attitude,IMO an out of the ordinary fresh outlook, I am sure there are plenty of people like your self who DO NOT agree with all that is written or said whether from LVA or any one else, if it does not make sense to us, Question Everything, I have in that area, the same out look........PS, Zee I did not take things personally, I have thicker skin than you think.......Things written from a key board very easily take on many meanings and can easily be misunderstood.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Yes Mike, I realize that you have a very thick skin (kinda like a rhinoceros). Okay guys, I was willing to let this drop, but you won't let me go Gene, so here it is..... let me steal this moment from you now, open your minds and let a young pup see if you old dogs can learn new tricks or not. Those dark areas on the OP's coin are probably not part of the devices, but rather shadows or dirt.  Here I have gridded off the mm using reference lines from the 4th and 5th tail feathers to the outsides of the "D" & "O".  I have done the same thing with the example from the vam-13 page.  Compare the two...... are they both shifted right? They most certainly are..... are either of them a high mm? No, they are not. Are they the same reverse? No, probably not..... Does this mean that they are not the same VAM? No, definitely not..... They are indeed the same VAM even though the reverses are probably not the same. Here is the point that I tried to make before: The die is NOT the die, the die does not matter in the least when designating variety... Vams are not identified by dies..... Vams are classified by similarities. How many different reverses were used for vam-13? Two? Three? Five? Ten? Nobody knows, nobody cares. When attributing a VAM, there are a good many pups that do not have to match exactly..... They won't match exactly (because the coins may have been struck using different dies). Here is part of the description of vam-13 (in the words of the scource): Quote:
the standard VAM-13 - which is a low or no-premium variety that likely encompasses multiple die pairings Now, you lost me with all of that talk about the clashed "G" thing Gene, as I don't see any clashed letters on the OP's coin, or any reference to a clashed letter anywhere on the v-13 page either.... It wouldn't make any difference anyway, clashes are not similarities that classify vams, they are merely pups used to designate die state. Speaking of die state.... die states are not characteristics of vams.... die states are characteristics of dies..... This is what confuses so many folks.... you must train your brain to separate the two terms..... vams are not dies and dies are not vams..... You are not your twin brother, although you both may be named Darell. Bottom line: The OP's coin is vam-13. |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Oh yes..... let me play my own Devil's advocate for just a moment. No, zeewool you idiot..... Take Bryan's '78 vam-85 (for instance).... what causes it to be a new VAM? What separates it from vam-80? A little "7" in a device, and some cracks (which supposedly are not listable)?..... By your twisted interpretation of the classification process, you must think that it is just another die that should be listed as vam-80, In this case, the die IS the die....  Now, let me answer myself. I think that it should be a new VAM, but by the same token, so should a lot of other dies that are lumped all together as a single VAM.... I realize that this would be an impossible feat, but I still find the inconsistency in the rules high frustrating and very hard to understand. Edited by zeewool
02/24/2011 07:10 am
|
|
New Member
United States
28 Posts |
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but, according to pg 116 of the big book it states. the normal position(for O and S mint marks) is determined to be within the box formed by horizontal lines at the bottom of the wreath and tops of D and O and the vertical lines from the middle of the right side of the D and middle of the left side of the O. CC mint marks, being wider, use vertical lines on the right inside of the D and left inside of the O for the lateral indices. So the way I see zeewools lines, the horizontal are correct, but the vertical are to close. Or am I reading this incorrectly...kenny
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Oh you may well be right about that dadz, although as I recall, one set of those lines was to determine tilt rather than double lettered mm.... I used to have a VAM book about a year ago.... I don't know if I threw it in the trash or what, but I no longer have it.... That chart that you refer to is probably one of the reasons that I no longer own the book. The lines that I drew were for comparison purposes between vam-13 and the OP's coin only. I have little doubt that the chart to which you refer was used to classify the vam-13.... so this is a case of 'if the shoe fits'.... and the same shoe fits both coins. |
|
New Member
United States
28 Posts |
I got it, Thanks for clearing that up for me...kenny
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
When I was in college (years ago) near my dorm there was a small amphitheater the students affectionately called free speech alley. I used to love to go there and listen to the crazy people talk. Usually there was only one speaker talking, discussing, sometimes shouting at the blue with no more than ten or twenty people listening. As it turns out I found the speeches were unusual, offbeat and absolutely fascinating.
One sunny afternoon there was a student down at free speech alley shouting to the wind that 'we were all figments of our collective imaginations'. There wasn't a soul down there but him, so I thought I would go sit down and listen. He turned his gaze on me and instead of shouting at the wide blue yonder shouted at me instead. I was in a good mood so I lit a cigarette and listened. After a while I told him I could prove we (collective humanity) weren't figments of our imaginations.
With his hands raised in supplication he shouted at me: How pray tell can you prove this?
I told him logic says if both premises are correct, then the conclusion by necessity must also be correct.
He nodded his head in the affirmative.
First premise. If we exist we can affirm or deny our existence.
He gazed very intently at me.
Second premise. If we do not exist we can not affirm or deny we exist.
He glowered at me.
Conclusion. If we can affirm our existence because we exist and can not affirm our existence if we do not exist,therefore we exist.
He looked at me with eyes that were wildly twitching back and forth and then shouted an obscenity at me and walked off.
I calmly blew a smoke ring at him as he stomped off.
Multiple dies exist. Hmmmmmmm.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Oh how very droll of an analogy Terry..... ha...ha... If I were audible, (even with a Steven Hawking style of Ma Bell translator), I would be far more brief.... I ramble for clarity, but this usually just backfires on me. (Visualize me stomping off now).....  |
| |
Replies: 58 / Views: 5,175 |
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 02/23/2011 7:35 pm
