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While B 1 Reverse Searching I Found This And Was Confused...

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Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5615 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  01:28 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I took up the task of putting together a Mint State set of the 1878 7 TF B1's. This is NOT an easy under taking, I have been doing so for about 6-7 Months and I do my searching in a few venues, in local shops, some small local BI-Weekly shows and some on line major company auctions.

I have been doing well, IMO, for the time spent doing the research, ALWAYS do the research and then look for another source to double check the information you believe to be true.

While I am cherry picking at shows, in the local shops and on line, which I find the on line auctions to be the most rewarding, being it is ALL done based on the information you have and when things turn out as you "thought" it is an accomplishing feeling being you do not have the luxury to have the coin slab in hand, like at a shop or show.

I look on line at slabbed coins which are not attributed PCGS, NGC and the labels usually state 1878 7 TF Reverse of 78, Mint state 62 or better, well I am happy to say I almost have a complete set, except the elusive 85, go Brian... and the 86 ..

I am always looking to up grade also so I am looking for the 84-A because I only found it in AU-55 and AU-58, not Mint State, so, while I am searching for these coins, usually a couple of times a week at shops, twice a month at the show and a few times a week on line at the weekly auctions, I came upon this coin PCGS 1878 7 TF Reverse of 78 MS-64 coin at the on line site, I see this reverse I have not seen before, at least if I did I do not remember and I am picking apart the coin every inch , I do NOT recognize the reverse and I am going crazy ( a good crazy ) to compare this coins PUP'S and die markers to the beautiful posted pictures in the 28 days of Morgans among other places for a visual guide to my knowledge base, which I am proud to belong to a group of people who accomplish amazing things like that idea, absolutely fabulous key board away visual Morgan dollar library aid, I always liked pictures to assist me in memory retention of knowledge. Well I could not or I really should say, DID not think out side the B 1 Reverse "box",meaning the Vams 70-86, this coin was from the on line auction site and the day arrived a few days ago and I decided the coin was either a die state to a known B1 I have not been familiar with, Which I really was leaning towards because of a few things, one being there was not even a single die crack or break on the coin, or it was a new B1 I did not know of and I was again, not very comfortable with also, because when I go on line to "hunt" I expect to have some strong competition, especially thinking this is a possible new reverse also I figure I am some where around the middle of the food chain as far as being a Vammer,I figured if I saw the coin, every one who was looking also saw the coin and once these things get rolling, look out. I know every time I go on line, I treat the event like the scent of blood is in the water, and if the "sharks" are around, I have found they have deep pockets and will eat you alive to obtain what they want, I simply can not play that game.

I placed my bid and with in minutes I was out bid, so I did the waiting game, till the last few minutes and placed a affordable bid I could live with, The auction ended and for 25 minutes the coin was listed as "PENDING", this meant people placed crazy bids and the site needed time to sort out just who was the new owner of the "mystery" coin, well later I found out I HAD WON THE COIN, I was very happy, although I did not know what I had won, I was thrilled. I now await the coin to arrive so I can actually have it in my hand.
In the days that followed I was more eager to re think and re check all the information I had and I thought I would do some THINKING out side the B1 box and checked into the new guides I received today, the 2010 supplement guide from LVA and the 7 TF attribution Guide both signed by the author, Which I was thrilled to have, to add to my information arsenal, so I used the 7 TF Guide and checked out plenty more B1 Reverse 7 TF Morgans and after hours of being deeply into newer information I came across a 7 TF Reverse coin, listed as a 7/0 B1 Reverse, there was no sign of any feathers over the existing feathers and especially on the PCGS label, hence the term 7/0, nothing about the 7 over anything, on the PCGS label.
I checked every PUP and was convinced the coin I had won was indeed a 1878 7TF Reverse of 78 Morgan dollar, only this coin I attributed as a VAM 30, PCGS MS-64 coin.

Moral of this story, among other things, when you think you know or have a feeling about the attribution of a coin, you do NOT have in your hand, it comes down to one simple basic principle, knowledge, if I had the information I needed to be sure about the coin I was bidding on it would of meant I would of had the knowledge to be sure about what exactly I was doing, I was not because I for some reason, did NOT allow my self to think out side the box, KNOWLEDGE is the key to many things in life, and when you play in this game, you are better off having the knowledge to do, as you set out to do, get the coin you thought you were going to receive. I am not upset about winning the coin, in the double tail feathers design, I needed this example............... "Learn that poem"!!!LOL.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  01:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey DAD..I know what you mean...I have bid on many a coin...and backed away from those that would go much higher than I thought they would...Thinking I knew what it was...and others that I had a feeling for and not bidding. thinking every one else knew? alas they did not know and at times I did see all of the details...and did not bid.. such is the "knowledge required".....to know exactly what your getting...
but as we grow, (still its a nice coin) we become better at what we bid and buy...
Its from comments like these I grow on......Thanks Dad...
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
not sure if this will help you or not but you can always look here if need be http://www.coincommunity.org/galler...hp?album=154
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5615 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bryan Thanks for the option, I would also like to point out the "known" factor, while searching for this coins information, I see on VW 1-Coin sold in 2008 labeled PCGS MS-64 and others from NGC but none listed for either grading company in condition better than MS-64.
I do not know for sure the known factor for this coin in PCGS, but I believe there is none "listed", in a higher grade, Known.

I have this coin, which is NOT listed as a VAM 30 coin, that is an indication of my point about known or listed known coins, just because the coin is listed as the # known, there are some out there that are not attributed or known, and are not counted as such..........They are known, just are masquerading as something else.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yeah but that is why you have to eliminate all "known" before you decide you have a unknown. If it has a long knock it is either an 8TF,7/8TF or 7Tf B1, 8TF is easy the 7/8TF is easy for me because even though the TPG will list a 7/0 as a 7TF most of them are easy to spot by the Reverse with features like doubled legs and extra talons (as yours has) but there is usually a tell tell sign on the Reverse that lets you know its actually a 7/0 rather than a 7TF B1 and most of them are around the legs,feet of the eagle. So its basically elimination and sometimes you just have to take a chance if you do not know, I have purchased a couple VAM-33's from poor pictures looking for a VAM-44 so its just the way you play the game, sometimes you win sometimes you don't. The first thing I always look for is the long nock, then I will look for disconnected leaf, if it doesn't have a disconnected leaf I know the only two known are 83 and 84 that are B1's so I will look at the Obverse, if none of those match I start looking for 7/8,7/0 diagnostics. Chances are if there are going to be any more B1's found it will be a different die marriage (like the VAM-85 and VAM-86) so if neither the Obverse or Reverse match any known B1's you have to try and eliminate all known before you decide its a new VAM. I collect B1 Reverse Morgans but I have to know more than just 7TF B1's to collect these, I have to familiarize myself with all B1 reverse and that includes all 7/8 TF as well (7/0 is considered a 7/8 even though the TPG's call it a 7TF). If you are really wanting to collect B1's I would pick up the 7/8TF attribution guide (this book includes 7TF B1 Rev), it is one of the first VAM books I ever bought and even though others have been found since rthe book was printed it is very valuable to arm yourself on what to look for and things to eliminate when trying to cherrypick. Even though I can usually spot a 7/8,7/0 I still will putt out this book on poor pictures trying to see if I can match up anything at all with any of the known VAM's
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Morgansdad, also what grade are you looking for on the VAM-84A? I believe I have quite a few of them ranging from MS-62-65. I will have to look to be sure what the grades are but know I have a few of them graded by NGC and PCGS. I am not trying to turn this thread into a sale thread but thought I would let you know if you find it impossible to find one in the grades you are looking for let me know and I may be able to help you out
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5615 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2011  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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