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How Do You Differentiate A Variety From An Error?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed completely- I know some people will pick the point of "Technically" in respect to chips, polishing and the like. But I think we can all agree that when term "Variety" is used, we're referring to a [Desirable] variety. The minor stuff will never be held in the same light as a rare die variety. Everyone should understand that distinction.
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm...number of completely correct posts so far = 0.

Okay...here goes, but I KNOW I have posted this in and around here a number of times. It's actually VERY simple, and everyone has it wrong to some extent or another.

type - A major change in design. I don't think I need say more, except that ANY use of the term "type" other than to describe the " Franklin half dollar type versus the Kennedy half dollar type" or a "major U.S. Type set" are wrong. The term "type" does NOT apply to mintmark styles, doubled die classes, etc.

variety - A change that was meant to take place but was not necessarily meant to be noticed. Mintmark styles, date sizes, minor detail changes (re-engraving, etc.), changes in font (1976 dollars), large letters vs. small letters...these are ALL "varieties". The 1979-S proof coins have two "varieties" - 1 and 2. They are NOT "types".

die variety - An anomaly on a die that is repeated throughout the die's life - from the first coin struck to the last coin struck. Included are doubled dies, repunched mintmarks, over mintmarks, repunched dates, and over dates. ALL of these were on the die when it entered service, and were on the die when it was retired.

error - Subdivided into three classes - Planchet, Die, and Strike. Planchet errors are errors that occurred with the planchets before they entered the coining process. Laminations, although very common, fall under this group. Die errors are problems that occur with the die while it is striking coins. Cuds fall into this group, as do major clashes, overpolishing, etc. They are generally repeated ONLY after they occur. Coins struck BEFORE the die error are normal. Striking errors comprise the vast majority of errors, and happen as the result of the strike. The planchet and die could have been completely normal, but because of a problem at the moment the coin was struck you end up with an error. Double struck, saddle struck, broadstruck, etc.

So...examples...

1. A Cud is a die error. It's a break in the die that occurred after the die was hung on the press for use.
2. An unplated planchet is a planchet eror. It was not plated when it entered the process.
3. A doubled die is a die variety. The die had doubling when it was created and ALL coins struck by it show the same doubling.
4. An 1858 large letters F.E. cent is a variety. There is a small letters variety as well.
5. A Close AM 1992 cent is actually an error. It's a mule. An unintended design coupled with another design.
6. A 1937D three-legged Buffalo nickel is a die error. Overpolishing occurred on the die after it started striking coins.
7. The 1942/1 Mercury dimes are actually doubled dies. In order to have an over date, the date would have to have been punched into the die separately from the hubbing process. This is not the case. In fact, ALL 20th century coins with two different dates (unintended) are doubled dies - class 3, design hub doubling, to be exact.
8. A quarter struck on a dime planchet is a striking error. The planchet was normal - just the wrong one.
9. A quarter struck on stock intended for a dime (thinner) is a planchet error. The planchet was flawed before it was struck.

If you really follow the rules above, everything can be properly explained and most of the guessing can simply end. If everyone would use the terms above as defined, we could enter an age where everyone understands them, everyone can teach them, and those who learn can enjoy collecting coins UNDERSTANDING the process that made them. Moreover, they can completely and properly understand WHY separate terms are used to describe them.
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 03/21/2011  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And as I have described here before, it is entirely possible to have multiple errors on one coin (a broadstruck coin with a broken die), as it is entirely possible to have a die variety and an error on one coin (a repunched mintmark struck off-center).

I think the ONE place where people get hung up more than any other place is the difference between die errors and die varieties. Because die errors are repeated, they assume die variety...but a die variety happens on the die before it is placed into service, and a die error "develops" on the die with use.

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Newbismatic's Avatar
United States
380 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Newbismatic to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very thorough post as I often get these mixed up. Thanks copper coins!
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another important area to cover is when the die varities, varieties, and errors DO get mixed up on the same coin, we often see the case of a white elephant that is difficult to sell, because very few collectors want (or care about) all the parts involved. I will explain:

A 1946S 'serif-S' variety Lincoln Wheat cent (type) has a die variety - a doubled die obverse. It is also a striking error, it was struck 20% off-center. This is a case of a coin that is a variety, die variety, AND an error all in one.

Normally the die variety is hypothetically worth $15. The variety (mintmak style) is common, so it doesn't figure into all of this - it was merely an example to show that all three can be on one coin.

Normally a 1946S Lincoln Cent that is struck 20% off center would sell for $10 (hypothetical again).

So here we have a $20 die variety on a $10 error. Who would buy it for $30? Well, not the error collector, because they could care less about the die variety. To them it's a $10 error. The die variety collectors don't want it because some of the detail that's missing is the detail that shows the doubling. To them the coin is basically worthless. They are into the doubling, not missing details. So wat turns out to be a very scarce instance of a die variety/error coin turns into a coin that won't sell because of it's predicament.

You see, there REALLY IS a difference, and there REALLY ARE people who collect one or the other but not both. When you start mixing them together and charging a premium for each different thing that would make a premium, you lose 99% of your buyers.

I have said it before a number of times, I am a die variety collector and couldn't care less about errors. I wouldn't pay much of a premium for an off-center cent, but I would pay really good money for some doubled dies. There are other people who would pay a premium for an obvious error, but wouldn't give you a dime extra for a doubled die if you couldn't see it at arm's length.

These things have different names because their collectors are classified differently and have different interests that have to do with different parts of the minting process.

So there...
Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
lol, where were you a few hours ago? Thanks for straightening us out Chuck!
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was actually lurking, to tell the truth. I wasn't sure I would be needed this time around, but when I saw the mess was getting bigger, I stepped in.
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 Posted 03/21/2011  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wasn't going to touch it....Scooby dragged me in, I guess there's a reason I stick to die varieties.
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Scooby Due's Avatar
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4000 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scooby Due to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dang!

And here I thought I had actually learned something!
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wolf-n-wa's Avatar
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602 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wolf-n-wa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fine mess you started again Scoob. HA!
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, but according to technical (and proper) terms, the wide and Close AM cents are NOT die varieties. They are actually errors and fall under the same basic class as the washington 25c/eagle $1 golden dollar coins. They are mules, but are slightly different kinds of mules - design variety mules versus type mules. Two designs used together that were not intended to be used together would ALL be mules. Nothing is "wrong" with either die except that they were not supposed to be used together.

MANY of the improperly termed coins could be defined using different paradigms and would "fit" better - like the fact that an 1805/4 half dollar is an over date, while a 1942/1 dime is a doubled die. You and I KNOW they were caused by two completely different things, thus should not be defined using the same term. The 1804 half dollar die received a hand-punching by a 5 digit, thus creating a new dated die. This occurred in a time when the stylistic design of a coin was hand cut into each individual die, and the date (and other lettering) was punched - much like a leather punch - into the steel die. The 1942/1 dime die was entirely created by a 'pressing' - or 'hubbing' technique. The 1942 die was erroneously hubbed with a hub exhibting a 1941 date.

If we re-think it under the following terms, the entire thing falls into place...

A 1960 large date cent could be considered one 'date' and a 1960 small date could be considered another 'date' - when the two were placed into one die, they created a design hub doubled die. Two different designs exhibiting two different date styles. Where's the difference between this and the 1942/1 dime except that the last digit of the date is different? Exactly...they are BOTH design hub doubled dies - class 3.
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We tend to create terms to fit what we think we see, without regard to what actually CAUSED what we see. We explain the result without regard to the cause.

These terms expect us to know the cause in order to explain the result. That's all a part of collecting coins to this advanced degree - that we are EXPECTED to know the minting process and how - scientifically - these things are created. We can't just go tacking terms onto them because we feel like it. They already have an explanation, a term, and a cause. It's our job as collectors to know and understand that cause so we can use the proper term.
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Scooby Due's Avatar
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4000 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scooby Due to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Fine mess you started again Scoob.


Thanks, Wolf.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1547 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2011  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add eddiespin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppercoins, thanks for the CNE (Continuing Numismatic Education)!
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2011  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Specialists disagree with some of the terms and their definitions as used by Coppercoins. I am one that agrees 100% with Chuck's usage of terms and I think that some of the other specialists would come around to our way of thinking if we were all able to sit down in one place and discuss the terminology together.

There is one exception to what was listed and that pertains to 7) where Chuck says: ALL 20th century coins with two different dates (unintended) are doubled dies - class 3, design hub doubling, to be exact.

1909/8 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles are overdates in the 19th Century and earlier sense. It is the last overdate involving the hand punching of digits into a die. So for all intents and purposes Everything else that appears as an overdate on 20th Century coinage is a Class III doubled die.

Everyone should memorize Chuck's definitions and use the terms appropriately.

Have Fun,
Bill

Edited by foundinrolls
03/22/2011 12:24 am
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