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 Replies: 103 / Views: 11,632 |
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Forum Dad
 United States
24161 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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Forum Dad
 United States
24161 Posts |
I don't see the clashed N though...  Do you? |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
No bobby, I don't, but these clashed letters are nearly impossible for me to see anyway...... maybe it is akin to a 'phantom E' ?
I sorta thought that this was a trick question in the first place...... Not 7, not 7A, not 7B, (but seemingly the die is the die)..... if you were to send it in, who knows what it might be called.... to me, it looks like it could be considered 7 LDS or the unknown clashless 7A..... I'm not completely sold on the die state progression of this obv die..... maybe it might turn out to be 7C..... maybe even vam-1..... Probably would depend on if the day that it arrived is a classification day or a die identification day.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I would be comfortable calling it VAM 7B. I clearly see the clashed N. |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
In my frame of reference, the V7 can have multiple die pairs in the VAM. Only a single die pair fits into the V7A/7B VAM. I see no hint of clashing on either obv or rev of the subject coin photos, so I would start with a choice between V7 or V7A. One could assume that during the die stages of the V7A/7B marriage, the VAM assignment would go from V7A to V7B, back to V7A when the clash marks erode from the V7B stage. Using a sort of code that is not endorsed by Leroy, call it V7A1-V7B-V7A2. With that as a basis, you have a choice in which to call this VAM. You could go with V7, or V7A1 EDS. Or to be more honest to the current system, you have a choice between a V7 or V7A EDS. Hope that helps, but kinda doubt it. I suspect that will be follow-on discussion about this. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
I believe this is a very interesting state of this known die, I also clearly see Obverse clashing, behind Anna's neck and the Letter "N" at the neck. I would call this the VAM 7B , but according to the plates on VW or in the encyclopedia, this is a die state somewhere between, a very bust coin or possibly unknown die state.....I think by calling it a VAM 7 you would be in the ball park....... |
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Forum Dad
United States
24161 Posts |
Man, you guys got good eyes. I don't see the clashed N on my images or the one at VW.
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
I have been called eagle eyes before because I have been accused of seeing things that others don't. I see absolutely no signs of clashing. But of course, I do not have the coin in hand. Having the coin in hand usually trumps photos, so I will sit idle on this one. I already gave MO.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
While looking at the reverse for the first time just now, I see the classic wing clash from the eagle's right wing up to the letter G in God, it actually curves like none other I have seen being it curves with an "ARC", that said I also see on the obverse behind Anna's head what appears to be the wreath from the reverse doubled, and possibly tripled, also the letter "N" from the word IN is very evident in the left portion of the neck just outside the neck line.
I have also been studying clashing indications for some time and while this and a dime will get me 2-nickels, I see what I see, not that others can not, just I do see these things and more.
I would also suggest the simple fact the reverse shows the right wing clash up to the letter G is a STRONG indication of clashing and would hope others would agree.......I would agree the coin would be simply wonderful to have in hand to see under the stereo-microscope!!
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
There is no clashing on this coin. I cannot imagine a circumstance where a letter transfer would show up in the absence of a line from the neck vee; likewise for the reverse where the neck clash atop the wing really ought to be accompanied by the hair clash on the wreath. Furthermore, for the reverse neck clash to be so rotated as to point to the "G" instead of the normal "n," I should expect it to show some angle as the only orientation that leaves a neck clash in the vertical position would point straight at the "n." One must also consider the "some V7's have die chips in the vee of the second 8," which in the absence of any other die progression evidence is smoking-gun proof that more than one die pair comprises this VAM. Is it what we now call "VAM-7"? Yup. Will we still call it that at some later date? Unlikely. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1285 Posts |
From an educational standpoint could one of you who sees the clash PLEASE circle it on one of bobby's pics.
Thanks
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5614 Posts |
Dave, I would like to present a circumstance in which you might agree, I would propose this coin, after the clash was noticed, was taken out of service, and quickly, replaced back into service, after minimal polishing was performed? Leaving the eye appeal, most obvious, obverse neck line from the wing clash the first order of polishing, possible? I do not know how to enhance the photos in any way, I do see clashing and would actually like to see photos of this coin, with out the flash or glare where it is, not on the neck line, not on the back of her head, not on the reverse wreaths, and not above or below the arrow heads, please, Thanks...... It is always a good thing to compare and discuss opinions.......
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
I cannot imagine a circumstance where a letter transfer would show up in the absence of a line from the neck vee; likewise for the reverse where the neck clash atop the wing really ought to be accompanied by the hair clash on the wreath. Astute observation and excellent point Dave.... I completely agree. Quote:In my frame of reference, the V7 can have multiple die pairs in the VAM. Only a single die pair fits into the V7A/7B VAM. Yes VfM, I see what you mean there..... it is quite obvious that the v-7 obv is not the same die as the 7A/7B obv. Quote:One could assume that during the die stages of the V7A/7B marriage, the VAM assignment would go from V7A to V7B, back to V7A when the clash marks erode from the V7B stage. Using a sort of code that is not endorsed by Leroy, call it V7A1-V7B-V7A2. Based solely on what I considered to be a progression of die field wear, I would have thought that the progression was 7B to 7A. Quote:With that as a basis, you have a choice in which to call this VAM. You could go with V7, or V7A1 EDS. Or to be more honest to the current system, you have a choice between a V7 or V7A EDS. Yes, this seems to be one of those 'die classification'/'die is the die' combo vams..... There is no die state progression involving v-7, because it is a different die than 7A/7B..... that leaves only to determine which was first, (7A or 7B)..... once that is determined, then a person might choose to decide if there is more than one reverse involved..... if not, was obv 7 or obv 7A/7B paired with that rev die first? If there was more than one reverse die used, that might simplify things a bit, but..... is this how the dictated die state progression is arrived at? Neither you or I have the blind faith to assimilate to the musings of higher authorities VfM..... This numbering system based on classifications is what holds vamming in the dark ages more than anything else..... I know that most folks feel that vamming has a strong foundation, and just needs to be built upon, but I will never agree with that.... I shall cling stubbornly to my belief that the die is the die, or die state progression is idiocy..... general classification has no place in a situation where microscopic factors are involved. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
From an educational standpoint could one of you who sees the clash PLEASE circle it on one of bobby's pics. Here ya go: Circled in red is the proposed "n" clash on the obverse of Bobby's coin. The blue line is where I expect to see the top edge of the wing clashed, if the clash is strong enough to transfer a letter.  It should look something like this, understanding I picked a real strong one for clarity.  On the reverse, circled in red is the proposed neck clash.  Now. My red-circled "A" is what a neck clash reaching the "G" should look like. Note the initial curve where it touches the wing - it's a function of design - the only way a neck clash reaches the "G" is if the initial chin-neck intersection itself clashes. A neck clash will not reach as far "east" as the "G" without that curve. Only if it's as far "west" as the "n" will that initial curve not show. "B" is where the hair vee clash ought to be, if that's actually a neck clash. The hair vee clash is usually the strongest and first to appear on the reverse.  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Yes, I am understanding all of that and it is as I would see it also...... I had thought last night about asking if there was rotation involved on the coin, but I thought if there was, it would have been mentioned.
Whatever is in the red circle is not part of an 'N' or a 'G'.... the outline is not correct.... on top of that, the neck vee clash on the 7A is not really in the neck vee, but is on the jaw, so this anomaly is too low to be a letter portion.
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Replies: 103 / Views: 11,632 |
Posted 03/29/2011 4:52 pm
