Question On Some Chinese Coins....

They all share one thing in common: counterfeit.

There are so many counterfeits out there of Chinese coins. Unfortunately, the surfaces of these are a dead giveaway. the weight would confirm it - i'd bet these are a good few grams under weight.

The second coin tells the story. Someone got a FOO KIEN.

coinut I agree with you.

I never like it when a coin is returned in a body bag and called - COUNTERFEIT. I always want an answer - WHY is it a counterfeit.

I have been a coin authenticator for several dealers for many years and I can say with no reservations at all that the opinions expressed are unfortunately correct.

But I can also supply the WHY answers.

First you should realize that when I authenticate I am looking first NOT at the design of the coin. If you start there you are putting the cart before the horse.

All you need to know is - HOW WERE THE ORIGINAL COINS MADE?

Start with the top coin - It is a Chinese Empire Dollar from the period at the turn of the 19-20th centuries.

Without knowing the exact date or Province involved I know the coin MUST be STRUCK, made of 900 fine silver and that it should weigh 26.7 grams. From my knowledge of how fast coins wear I estimate that no more than half a grams of silver should have worn off normally (that is a high estimate and takes into account original mint tolerances).

So I would weigh the coin. Now if it weighs 22 grams you can stop right there it is a FAKE. But lets keep going.

Next I take a small pocket magnet and see if the coin is magnetic. If it is magnetic then the coin is made of nickel or iron and it is a FAKE. Lets continue.

Then I look at the edge of the coin - what does it look like and is it correct? Lets say it is reeded and the reeds are irregular, or the reeding OVERLAPS or there is an edge seam or the reeds are cut by hand or the reeds have split tops - or ........ You get the picture. If it is wrong the coin is FAKE.

Now all these steps require having the coin in hand. I don't, but there are many more clues visible in a picture.

First, does the coin look like it was struck from a die made in the correct manner and style for the period of time of the original? In this case is the coin struck from a punched or hubbed steel die in a collared press? The answer is NO. The lettering is not punched into die - it is rounded not sharp and rather crude for a turn of the century die. Also the scales on the dragon and the entire dragon itself are very oddly drawn like line figures and show none of the artistry seen on an original coin. This should be apparent in a side by side comparison with a good photo of an original coin. The die is not a punched steel die - the coin is FAKE.

Next on the reverse of the first coin I see evidence of post strike edging in the form of tiny raised bumps around at least part of the perimeter. An edge design applied at the time a coin is struck in collar DOES NOT DIMPLE THE RIM with the exception of upward collar drag on SOME coins usually MS grades. The coin most probably is FAKE.

The coin fields around the Dragon have not been properly finished (ground and prepared for striking) and do not match the reverse die surfaces. Always be very suspicious when the two sides of one coin exhibit different overall appearances. It is probably a FAKE.

The second coin adds casting voids to the mix - small air pockets that were in the metal when it was poured into a mold. If a coin is supposed to be struck and it is cast then this is a sign it is FAKE.

The Victoria coin from Hong Kong exhibits many of the same traits listed above but adds a curious feature that may indicate in some fashion how the image was transferred to the mold. The diagonal parallel lines across the face appear to be a die feature - it does not belong but could point to the method used for image transfer. Image transfer by any method other than a die punch or hib means, it is FAKE.

In general all of the coins exhibit anomalies that are NEVER seen on real coins of the period. So when I add up all of the visual tests you can do on a photograph I can state they all fail the test.

You need to learn how coins were made before you can collect them and at the same time avoid fakes. It is part of the fascination of the hobby. It is like CSI for Coins. Knowing how a coin was made makes you less vulnerable to forgers and if all collectors knew just what I have discussed here - the majority of the poor grade forgeries would NEVER SELL. Those forgers would be out of business.

The high grade well made Numismatic fakes cost the forger too much to manufacture for same at a couple dollars each. So they tend to sell in a different market to more sophisticated collectors at much higher prices. They need a different level of understanding but by the time you are ready to get into that market your knowledge should have increased to the point where you can safely do it. Never collect past your point of clear knowledge.

BUY THE BOOK BEFORE THE COIN - Aaron Feldman's quote from the 1950s means Learn BEFORE you buy so that you know as much or more than the forgers. Reading is cheap - buying forgeries is NOT.

Good luck but keep your eyes open for all the clues and DO NOT GO BARGAIN HUNTING for rarities. When a deal is too good to be true it usually is just that.

I have some coins to that I need to know if they are real or not?

Post, in order of importance:

pix of both sides
weight to .1 g or dwt
diameter (if you don't have a mm scale, show next to a known coin for size)

gxseries I agree that the so called "super counterfeits" are a problem but they have been around for years and their existence should not stop us from performing the simpler tests outlined in the post.

This thread started with some common crude Chinese forgeries ALL OF WHICH would be picked up with simple tests. We all need to perform such tests on EVERY coin we examine.

But the discussion of super counterfeits brings to mind a story from when I was completing my education on forgery.

I recently wrote a letter to a friend and told him about my final exam in counterfeit identification. I learned from a man now deceased who was an old school master at fraud detection. As sort of a "final test" in about 1986 (I had been training off and on for nearly 10 years) he handed me a US Seated Liberty dollar to authenticate. The coin was MS and at the time would have been a $1000 type coin. I studied it over a period of several days for many hours using every test and clue I had been given. There were NO anomalies that identified the coin as a forgery. NOT ONE.

The only distinctive feature on the dies was a tiny raised area beneath the eagle's wing attributable to a die collapse - a "normal" minting problem which happens when a subsurface weakness in the die steel causes a surface displacement.

So I suspected it was a trick question.

I asked him "Did you substitute a real coin to fool me?" His reply was, "If you think it is real I will sell it to you for $400".

Since that was less than half of retail I knew something was up. So I gave up and said I "believe" it is a fake but can't prove it.

It was a two part lesson in authentication. First, he handed me a box which contained several IDENTICAL coins. Then he said, he KNEW the man who made the dies and the coins. They were made less than 10 years before. It was a fake because HE KNEW IT WAS. There was NO other reason.

The primary point of the lesson was that Super Counterfeits did exist and that the average authenticator will miss them - but due diligence is all that is called for. The second lesson was of even more value, an under market offer should always cause suspicion.

I just want to caution everyone that super counterfeits while a problem are normally not made to sell for $1 or even $100. They will be of more expensive coins because the cost of manufacture is high. So until an inexpensive method of making super counterfeits is developed - use reputable dealers and have your better coins certified by top tier TPGs with a GUARANTEE. That way you minimize your exposure to loss.

Once a coin is encapsulated - "It is for all intents and purposes REAL".