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1897-O Very Different Die Breaks.

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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2011  08:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ocsjr2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zee; I don't have the answer to your question, but I do have an OPINION. I, myself, have a very hard time buying into the theory of a single VAM having multiple die pairs. To me, if you take one old die and pair it with a new die then its a new number, and if you replace the older die with a new one then it should warrant another number, and so on. When dies are changed like this the numbers should change instead of adding A,B, C, etc. and when dies remain the same with differences such as clashing and mint clean up then the letter changes are called for. Its my opinion and I could very well be wrong, anyone and everyone is allowed to disagree, it doesn't cost anything, not even good for a cup of coffee. But Zee, if I ever met you, I will buy you a glass of good wine!
Bedrock of the Community
Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2011  09:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but now I am just plain confused. What I have learned from this thread is that I could have a VAM 9, or a VAM 3, and that was determined by die cracks that do not count towards attributing vams. Just wanted to be clear. Thanks, mike.....

No one ever said that you can go by the cracks to determine which VAM a coin is, but if all other attributes match along with the cracks then its definitely that VAM. You can look at the cracks and know that there is no way for the cracks to totally be in a different place than another coin and be the same VAM. The cracks can progress and get bigger and deeper but they can not change where they are. It wasn't just the cracks that made us determine your coin and NLP's coin is the same but seeing the cracks did match along with the other attributes helped us to be pretty sure they were the same VAM
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2011  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I like the way that you put that Bryan....

We see it the same way Smitty..... either the rules should revolve around the 'die is the die'.... or the rules should gravitate toward 'classification' (similarities)..... either way, but not both..... but I am afraid that it is more than just a 'theory' now though... it is 'fact' (unfortunately).... The descriptions of several vams include the disclaimer of 'this VAM consists of multiple die pairings'..... We have had more than one thread lately where this was the case.
Pillar of the Community
aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2011  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zee and Smitty, I can totally agree...I still think along old school lines "the die is the die" thing....this newly transformed theory of
Multiple wive's/Dies idea.. is just that...a way to cover up....the discrepancies of the current numbering system....AS we are still discovering more new vams every week, and MANY OR are found to be actually a subset of listed VAM's with NO place to put them in the current system, usually they got a new number when found...But as time goes by..they are found to be related or subsets of known vams,,,Now the term is "Die Classification", which means we can alter month by month and change the listings , "Correct the listings" without upheaval of the entire numbering process, which some of us know was in the works and caused many a division in the memberships..(a few years back.) And what of those who had coins graded? or the TPG's involvement? the "Die classification" is an attempt to allow anything new but "related" to have a home in the VAM listings rather than to fill it with new numbers which will be found to be subsets of known vams or vams with close relationships....not needing new numbers as they are all but "pimples on the butt" for differences..
If one had hind sight in the beginning, (and who has?) the numbering system would have had slots for VAM 1, 1A say a clash, 1B for a letter transfer..ECT ECT as there are only so many VAM worthy MAJOR attribution points...all others would fit somewhere into the subcategory of those main attribution points...ergo numbering system could be the same for all the years.....
however as we now see its too late for the system to get an overhaul, and redistribute a new numbering system when so much money has already been spent in submissions and resubmissions
billions of dollars "DECLARED VALUES"...TPG's
backed.ID of specified VAM acceptance/$$$dollars.
one must find a way to find balance within the old and new,, as it is still "IN FLUX"

I think Scott has found the answer...in the die classification....THEORY....... it allows these small pimples which now seem to plague the community for there rareity...and allow for an unknown die pair with no real VAM "WOOOOOW factor to have a home...
It allows for corrections for known listings which are truely within the same family listed by different VAM designations numbers...
allowing for a correction and understanding of the coins listed as different but which are now known to be of a shared "die progression state" ok "I've dragged on long to far and I'm
almost out of beer...I bid you well my friends...
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