| Author |
 Replies: 12 / Views: 2,301 |
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
This is a question of a newb when it comes to slabbed coins. Last year I bought a PCGS First Strike MS70 ASE from a local dealer (someone I trust and respect). This is the only slabbed coin I own. Today I decided to look at it under a microscope. I thought MS70 meant absolutely perfect?! I can find some white spotting on it here and there; on the REV the T in "STATES" has a gouge in it; and where some of the lettering was stamped on the ribbon by the eagle, there are some raised "burrs" around their edges. None of this is visible to the eye without magnification. Although I was using my microscope at the time, I believe I could see the gouge in the T with a 10X magnifier. I was under the impression MS70 meant absolutely perfect. When I talked to the local dealer concerning the freshly-made mint boxes of ASE coins he sends in for grading every year, he told me that its always 20% that come back as MS70. He said he talks about this with different dealers at shows and they say the same. He said it would not surprise him if the grading services just randomly pick 20% out of the boxes and put them in MS70 slabs. Could this be what I am seeing in this coin? Sorry no pics. |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Coin grading TPG's (PCGS/NGC) have been going downhill as far I am concerned. The all mighty dollar rules now. You are indeed correct that MS-70 is or once anyway mean't a perfect coin. Perfection in anything is extremely rare. But not any more. Times have changed and it is not what is used to be. The majority of coin buyers/dealers/collectors only buy the slab now. So if you have a slab marked MS70 then you might as well take advantage of it. I'm old school but I gave up myself on the integrity of modern coin grading. It used to be that all coins were graded at a max. of 4X magnification. Not any more. And with that said it makes even less sense that if a grader was using 6/8/10X and gives a 70 grade on a less than perfect coin you know something is rotten in denmark. So if a TPG is liberal on their grades that means more business for them. Sad but true. Everyone has their own opinion on who is the best TPG but regardless it's not the coin anymore (with very few exceptions) it's the slab that sells. So it's a catch 22. I'm older and tired now so what the hay, you might as well just go with the flow. Even if it is dead wrong. I still keep the faith with the Coin World but ? I would much rather grade a coin myself and buy it raw. That way I know that my grade is going to be the minimum it will go. Then if I send it out for a slab at least I have a bigger profit at sell time. If I do decide to even sell it. If you can't beat em, join em. |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Nothing man-made is absolutely perfect. A coin graded 70 should appear perfect at 5X. Spotting can develop after slabbing also. What you have described is not unusual at all. I've owned coins in MS70 and PF70 slabs that looked like 68s to me. It happens.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
314 Posts |
Slabbing helped ruin the Sports card hobby(over production and product saturation did too), It helped ruin the Comic book hobby, and it is on it's way, or has ruined coins.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10038 Posts |
I am old enough to remember when the first slabbing companies came into being. Back then I was not very old, but I remember thinking it was going to ruin the hobby. And, in a lot of ways, it did. The first problem I saw was it took the fun away of just filling a Whitman folder - people were now having a change of focus of getting the best coin out there. Some of the coins I had that were bought as "BU" (considered the best there was at the time) were now put down a notch in $ value b/c they did not have full bell lines or full steps. Yes, these full bell lines, etc., are actually spectacular coins. But let's face it, sometimes I am sure there were years where these features were never produced so perfectly. I talked with a couple of friends/dealers who used to grade for NGC. They agreed and said they both were not happy with the way the hobby went after these services were made available. Their suggestion was for the services to use a machine. The technology has existed for quite some time now where a machine could scan the coins and, based upon program algorithms, grade them. However, both my friends added that they could not see this happening in the near future b/c of less than "MS70 motivations" behind the TPG s For that matter, I am sure if a machine was used, I guess they would have to put a constant watch on it to make sure no one changed its code so it would not make proper grading evaluations either! How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
I have to agree with BH on the perfection thing.
I should of stated perfect meaning no visible flaws.
I.E.: nick, hit, scratch etc. anywhere on the coin.
Spotting, toning etc. does not change the overall condition
but the eye appeal factor then comes into play. Now, I have no clue
if the old percentage system of grading is still used. Giving a certain percentage in different categories as far as the coin goes. I'll have to find my old paperwork on that so as to break it down correctly. I know that was at least 4 seperate categories. One was at times the killer or savior and that one was a personal choice depending on the individual grader. That being eye appeal. That one factor alone could decide the difference between a 70 and a 69 or even 68 grade. Toning, luster, etc. comes into play. Some graders love toning some hate it. Maybe someone out there knows if this system
is still being used and if so by whom ? If not then I guess the coin is just graded on overall condition. I think a standard on magnification should be set period. Be it 4,5,6 or 8 etc. At 10X and over a minute ding that showed up on the edge of the rim or something
would otherwise not have be seen at a lower mag. If eye appeal is not being used now, then the computer grading would work. But you cannot
program a machine for eye appeal. Oh well, just some thoughts.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
Quote:
But you cannot
program a machine for eye appeal. Actually, being a bit of a programmer myself - although its been awhile - I do not think this would be as hard as it seems. Eye appeal could be a factor of surface reflectivity in different wavelengths (measuring toning). An algorithm to take into consideration the percentage, coloring, depth etc per surface area and placement, I do not think, would be all that difficult. Now of course the machine could not really "know" eye appeal - but at least it would be a fun challenge to make it appear it does! That would be done by finding out what makes up "eye appeal" and putting parameters on it which the computer could use to calculate the desired result. Whatever the case, I think things would be a lot more standardized b/c you could set up scratches/dings per surface area etc.  Anybody got a few hundred million lying around that they don't know what to do with and want to start a company? Sounds like a fun idea. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
I guess anything is possible. Simple to adjust the program on toned coins. Just alternate every other one. :) I still think overall it would not be possible to program eye appeal. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even if the programmer beholds the machine, the machine cannot be beholding. Did I just say that ?  Look at it this way. If you look deep into a womans eyes (or a mans, I have big brown ones myself  ) i'll stick to the womans eyes for now, you can see their soul. But you know right away if you really like what you see. Coins sort of have a soul of their own. You know what you like when you see it.  |
|
Valued Member
United States
384 Posts |
Sorry to go a bit off the topic but I think it is possible to get the computers to grade, the TPGs just need a huge database of coins, which they should have by now, and some good programming.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
526 Posts |
I believe in using a TPG service for authentication only, the grade assigned to the coin really means nothing to me. I have submitted a couple of Walkers that I was skeptical of and they came back authentic, one was MS61 - Wife had to pick me up from the floor. There are so many fakes of High End coins that slabbing makes sense, although the fakes now come in fake NGC containers that show the coin on NGC's website. What a world we live in.... |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Let me guess: these coins bulk-graded to sell on one of the TV programs like HSN or Coin Vault? I would be surprised if a grader spent a whole minute inspecting each coin before deeming it MS70. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
659 Posts |
I think either NGC or PCGS had a machine that could grade MS morgans to 3 decimal poinnt, but it never really worked because of the eye appeal thing.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
289 Posts |
Maybe less than a minute DVcollecter
|
| |
Replies: 12 / Views: 2,301 |
|
Posted 05/01/2011 12:20 am
