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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,047 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
The question: "I found a minor RPM on a Lincoln Cent and can't find anything listed about it. What gives?" The answer - and it's not a short one: Many problems exist in listing minor RPMs or doubled dies that many who find them don't necessarily think of when asking this question. I'll do my best to bring you over to the attributor's side of things and expand on why coins that are definite RPMs cannot be listed in the guides. 1. The RPM might be too minor to list. Often times people use 30 power microscopes to search coins, and when they find anything that could be a keeper, they dig around expecting to stick a die number on it. Within the community of listing systems, a general rule of thumb exists that is often not advertised. An anomaly on a coin has to be viewable to the eye under low power and has to be easily photographable under 20-30X to be a listable variety. This knocks out a lot of the very minor "hairline" die varieties. 2. Any minor RPM or doubled die NEEDS to be on a higher grade circulated or uncirculated coin to be acceptable as a new listing. Reason for this is because we have to pull identifying markers off the coin, photograph them, write about them, and describe them in detail good enough to earmark that RPM as having these specific characteristics that are different from any other die. Most of the time dirty circulated or more heavily worn coins don't have these markers because they have been damaged or worn away. This is the only way we can be authoritative in listing what we know to be "different" dies. If we get into listing every circulated example of minor anomalies submitted, we will definitely end up double listing single dies because of a lack of information - even to us - because not enough could be derived from the less than stellar first example we examined. 3. The minor anomaly (whether it be a mintmark or doubled die) needs to have enough markers to be discernible as something different. This overlaps my previous two points, but is different in that if a minor RPM is submitted and the coin shows no markers, it's useless to list it because nobody is going to be able to identify a second example. These dies are often lost in the mix, and I can tell you there are dozens of them out there. If you have a minor die variety to submit, regardless of who you submit it to, make sure you can find markers on it before sending it in...because if you can't find them, the submittor can't find the (all well because they migght not be there), they aren't going to list the die if they have nothing to use in describing it. I hope this helps someone out there. I know there's a fair amount of excitement in finding 'anything' that matches the criteria of a die variety, but some of them are just too minor, too worn, or too plain to be listed. I kept them in a separate place for years, then finally started tossing them back into the pile because they would never be able to do anyone any good. Rule of thumb: If it's minor, make sure it's AU or better and undamaged. If that fits, make sure you can find die scratches, a defining die gouge, crack, break, or something that's on the die that fingerprints that die. If neither of these fit save yourself some trouble and toss it back in the pile. While the science of attributing die varieties is rather finite, it also has its drawbacks. The more collectors understand that not EVERYTHING is collectible and listable with a die number, the better off everyone will be. I can say from experience that attributing is very hard work sometimes, especially when we get a submission of minor die varieties that come from a year of issue in which they are plentiful - like 1960D cent RPMs...with over 150 of them listed to date, identifying minor ones is hard enough - let alone trying to identify a minor one with wear and no markers. Questions? Comments? I'll follow this thread and answer all I can to the best of my ability.
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Valued Member
United States
344 Posts |
Copper Coins
I like you seem to follow the way some coins are herded into a certain qaulification which tends to lead nearly all of us to were the higher ups tends for us to be herded even though some have bucked this direction in order to have the coin they believe is to be recognized as a significant find going against the herd. I've heard a story where a person took several years or more to have a coin recognized for what it is. I looked at a coin site which shows alot of lincolns with what they believe is an error or varity which seems to the average Joe to be nothing at all. Now if you take the high grade microscopes that these people use it seems that one can see things more than the average Joe will ever see with any loupe. IT ASTONDS ME . The high priced microscopes over take so much of the coin market out there. Now this leads me to believe those that use a high powered microscope on coins then has an advantage over those with the naked eye or the general 10,20 or 30X loupe. And we all know that the more we search and look at alot of amount of coins we all tend to one time or another to see things that may or may not be there. I am sure there is alot of DOUBLE taking in the searching process. For what it's worth I am amazed every day by the HYPE of any and all coins that it tends to feed a frenzy of sorts at times. Mishap-coins
Edited by mishap-coins 10/20/2006 12:50 am
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Valued Member
Australia
372 Posts |
A very interesting and well informed summary there.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
Mishap-coins: First off, many of the people pushing their finds to be what they believe them to be without luck are probably mistaken as to what they have found. If they send their coin to at least two reputable sources and are told they have nothing, that's probably what they have. Although the different listing systems and their authors compete for their piece of the recognition pie just as any competitors do, there is one thing common among all of them - they are very good at what they do. Mistakes may happen, but not usually the same mistake between two of them. Second - the highest power of magnification I use for anything is around 25X, and that would be only for photography for print publication. I generally never use more than 10-15X for searching, and I am considered one of the experts. My personal belief is that those who use any higher power to search is actually at a disadvantage because they are looking too hard to find what they seek. You don't have to study every contour and vein of a leaf to identify the plant. If you do, you're probably not a good botanist. Third - FAR too many people are using online auction sites to gauge the market, especially in hyped coins with very minor flaws that the uneducated fall into and fight to buy for exhorbinant prices. Best thing is to consult reputable sources (websites, books, articles) for the real information and leave the 'blind leading the blind' rat races to the folks on the auction sites who believe everything they see on the internet and those who'll do anything to have you believe them until they get your wallet. That's pretty much the majority of what I see on those sites these days, ebay being the worst of them. Fourth - A lot of the minor stuff being found on the most modern coins (of late the Minnesota and other Statehood Quarters) is passing in fad and will fall out of the graces of the majority soon enough. For some they will remain important collectibles, but for most they will be but a fleeting memory within a year. Do you remember the big to-do over the 1989 cents missing the VDB initials on the shoulder? They sold for $35-$50 when they were first discovered. You'd be lucky to get more than a buck for one of them now. The important point here is to collect what you want to collect because you find it interesting. If you're interested you won't care if it has value later, and if you're only following value and don't care about the reason it's valuable you should stick with rare coins by mintage and leave the die varieties to people who do care. "you" being used here as a generalism, not directed specifically to Mishap-coins.
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Valued Member
Ireland
498 Posts |
Thank you coppercoins for the great info Searching for other DDO and DDR in lincoln cents,as I understand the coin should be in high grade and a minor variety or a finger print on it to be recorded just like the 1970 DDO in coinlink,It means to have best example of the coin so it will be recorded. On record on world coin catalog 2006 by bruce,here are the list of double die start from 1955,1983,1984,and 1995,So other dates are not yet recorded or still in process. For us looking for error and variety needed to find other DDO or DDR in other year mostly coin in circulated and worn condition,if someone find one and post in this forum it needed to be in standard of 3 things you have mentioned,If not other may find a coin which is in the 3 standard and guides you have mentioned so that it will be recorded. Now the 1964 d DDR Ive read in this section you reply definitely a DD it is a major find? or it needed a coin in higher grade to be recorded? There are only a handfull of DD listed in world catalog in comparison on the number of year that was minted,so there are many still out there to be find and recorded may this forum be one way to know or find them either by piecemeal, The new find 1970 s DDO I guess it will appear in books on next year issue and it is also found in mint rolls from the bank. it means best finding one is from mint roll not only on your local bank but also from other state as well. if someone found one in circulation or worn or needed a better grade to be recoded hope that others will foolow up. How they will follow up,Just an idea post them in this forum until they have been recorded or written an article about the coin with all guides and standard from the expert, keeping the member posted or a subsection on confirmed double die but in circulated or worn condition but needed a higher grade to be recorded in books.Ther is an example 1964d DD what will happen? Also other DD that is posted long before in this forum,For me it is a good start,It is listed on word catalog
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
Josie: There isn't really a set "standard" of what's listable and what's not other than the magnification requirement; 10-15X to be seen and 20-30X to be photographed. The part about finding a marker on the coin before submitting it will make minor varieties more likely to be listed, but it isn't necessarily a standard. From what you write in your post it seems that you have not had access to a more complete listing of dies. Many generalist books will never list all of them, and 'best of' guides like the Cherrypicker's Guide will also never list all of them...imagine it sort of as a field guide to plants where only the major species are hit - not all 150,000 species of plants are listed in a $20 field guide. I might suggest a tour through https://www.coppercoins.com - there you will see a far more comprehensive listing of Lincoln Cent doubled dies and repunched mintmarks than you will see anywhere else in print or on the internet. The 1964D I confirmed by a photograph is a nice coin, but I'm not sure it is a new discovery. It is also not a "major" find worthy of publication in the newspapers. Those finds happen very infrequently. Doubled dies like that 1964D are found regularly. The 1970S is a very rare find, but it also is not a new one. That die has been known and published for 15 years or more. Because you are seeing it for the first time once again takes us back to the subject of using guides that are too general in nature. The 1970S doubled die was noteworthy because in the condition found, that gentleman's coin is a $30,000+ item...found in a $1.50 bank roll. You're more likely to get struck by lightning twice in the same spot on different days than find one of those. Fewer than three dozen are known to exist in any grade. I can only speak for the listing system used on coppercoins.com and its author (me) when I say that attributors are not paid much at all to list, photograph, and attribute coins...and in fact are often not paid at all for the service. We also know that people in today's society have to earn money to stay alive, and earning money takes time. So does attributing - often far more than they are paid for. What comes from that is better knowledge in whatever form they can publish it in. But publishing a new book every time a new die is found would be very cost ineffective - publishing books costs a lot of money. As for following the daily goings on in here, I simply don't have time. I do numismatic related work for a living - art, writing, publishing, attributing - and it's all I can do to keep up with the work. Message boards are something I go to when I get the spare time to allow it. With that in mind, I can't check every post in here looking for possible new dies. If you find something you believe to be of merit, I have instructions for sending in coins for attribution posted on my site. http://www.coppercoins.com/attribution.php - that's about the best I can do.
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Valued Member
Ireland
498 Posts |
Thank you coppercoin for another great info.
I did browse your site before I post my first post in this topic.there are so many many varieties in your site so I just return here and continue my first post,Excellent site you have.
Most of the things you said is right,
Thank you again.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
891 Posts |
Very informative. Thanks Coppercoins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1454 Posts |
Not to get off of the subject...but...I am. copper, what medal is the one that is light blue and is almost in the middle. My bosses Mother had one in her little coin collection although it is very worn but it is definitely that one.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1360 Posts |
Thanks coppercoins, a very informative thread!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
quote: Originally posted by Irishraider
Not to get off of the subject...but...I am. copper, what medal is the one that is light blue and is almost in the middle. My bosses Mother had one in her little coin collection although it is very worn but it is definitely that one.
Air Force Good Conduct Medal. Given to service members with a good conduct rating every three years of service. I ended up with three of them. Pretty much something that everyone gets who stays in for three years. The army has the same medal, different ribbon material.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2177 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
547 Posts |
Thanks coppercoins..Very interesting thread.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
You're all very welcome. I hope you got as much out of it as I did in writing it. Sometimes it helps to go over things to make points clearer. Never hurts to explain the inside of how something works to help educate the masses. I'll post some other related topics when I get a chance.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,047 |
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