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 Replies: 29 / Views: 3,668 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2541 Posts |
I agree with Bryan. This kind of garbage is just misleading and will probably end up being sold on HSN by that annoying scheister who just plain LIES about coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
870 Posts |
Well Gothic, I see your point.
But I also see the point of doing this - the US Mint did the same thing with the 1907 Double Eagle, this guy wasn't sure the US Mint would ever do it, so he did it himself. He made sure that it can't be confused with an original by putting 1964 all over it and made a big enough deal that they should remain in collector's hands - among collectors that know what they're looking at.
And it's a stunningly beautiful coin, even better than the original.
But, like you said, in 30 years it may become confusing as they start changing hands to people that don't know them. But isn't that the way with EVERY old coin?
Anyway, I appreciate what he did with one of my favorite coin designs - he made it better. =)
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Valued Member
 United States
309 Posts |
I wonder if anyone would have a problem with chinese counterfeiters minting 1964 Peace dollars and calling them D. Carr overstrikes. Counterfeits of the counterfeit...I think we have seen that with nickels before. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2204 Posts |
I don't think there's anything wrong with this. I see his logic about not needing to stamp "COPY" and how he can get away with it legally by marketing it as a fantasy coin.
As far as the price goes, this is a good example of how perception influences how we assign value. Many people (including myself) started salivating when they saw this beautiful coin. But if he were only selling it for, say, $49.95, then its perceived value would go down and it would lose its luster and allure. By charging a high price, the coin retains its perceived value as something special. For those who have a few hundred bucks in discretionary income, they are happy to shell out that amount because they think it's worth it.
Edited by jpsned
06/17/2011 10:40 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4618 Posts |
If I bought a Mint Coin Press, took real 1974 quarters then made 1975 dies, could I make as many 1975 quarters as I wanted and not break any laws? Sell them for whatever the market would bear? And even though this would be a "Fantasy Coin", I could still spend it, but that would be illegal. This seems to hit a LARGE gray area. Someone is going to get one of his coins and sell it for $1000s saying it's REAL. Once this kind of thing starts, who's to say where it ends. Is China just pumping out "fantasy coins"? If this is legal, what's to stop anyone from taking an AU-58 and pressing it into a MS-68? No way to tell it's been done unless you know every die marker on every coin. When you do find out it's modified and the seller is long gone with your money, what do you do? Where does Fantasy end and counterfeit begin? The courts just ruled on the "Liberty Dollar" barter coins, finding the maker guilty by a federal jury of conspiracy against the government in a case of domestic terrorism. The U.S. Attorney said "Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism, while these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country." How is this different? I think this is VERY dangerous to you and me as coin collectors. First we have to watch for fakes and now we can never be sure that the coin we have is in its true condition or if it's been "Grade Re-struck" to guarantee that it's a MS-68 or MS-69. If you can make any year Peace dollar into a 1964, you can make any denomination coin the year you want. It sounds like a license to mint any Doubled Die, Over Date or Variety coin ever made. All you need is the correct die and you have it. Want off metal errors? Done. Clips, Triple Strikes, Double Denominations, any error that just happens could be made to order. Have you ever seen the price on a shattered die strike or a cluster error? This shouldn't be allowed because it's taking a real coin and manipulating it to be whatever the seller wants it to be and the die without the date IS COUNTERFEIT, unless you count a high quality US Coin Die as Fantasy. ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637 Clean a coin that may be worth collecting? Please DON'T! When in doubt, leave it dirty!! 
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
No way to tell it's been done unless you know every die marker on every coin. Not true, an overstruck coin almost always has remaining traces of the original strike. Quote:
It sounds like a license to mint any Doubled Die, Over Date or Variety coin ever made. All you need is the correct die and you have it.
It is not quite that simplistic. Striking a high quality coin is much more difficult than you may think. You need a press specific for striking coins- DC has a surplus Graebner press that was used at the Denver Mint. You need to know how to operate and maintain the press. You need to know how to design a coin- DC designed the New York and Rhode Island State Quarters and created his own digital sculpting software. You need to know how to engrave and/or hub dies and also how to properly anneal them so they do not shatter upon first strike. Think what you may about the legalities of Daniel Carr's activities, but you cannot deny that the guy is an incredibly talented artist and skilled equipment technician. Moonlight Mint is a one-man operation from blank to coin. Simply put, there not many people in the world with his skill level so recreating/imitating his work would be a very difficult and expensive task. Edited by biokemist6
06/18/2011 01:08 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4618 Posts |
Sorry, I switched into Rant Mode last night.  It's true, I was being simplistic, I was just pushing to make a point. His coins are stunning and the fact that he's doing what no one else can does make me feel better. He's creating coins that are pure art and I have nothing against him for that. It just feel like what he's doing could be turned around and used by the scammers if they can ever match his skill. And what if someone out there does have a real 1964-D Peace dollar. I understand that it's a long shot and they couldn't sell them because they were never released, but this happened with the 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle not very long ago. Others will try to do what he's doing, but I don't know if any of them will ever match what he does. If they do, that's when I'll be worried every time I look at a coin. Some people have only one goal in life and that's to part us from our money with scams and fake items. ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637 Clean a coin that may be worth collecting? Please DON'T! When in doubt, leave it dirty!!
Edited by Yokozuna
06/18/2011 07:17 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
I've had my say about this before but somehow feel the need to comment again. There's no doubt Mr. Carr is a highly talented individual who owns the right equipment to produce these. There's also no doubt that there is other surplus mint equipment out there. We've all moaned & groaned over the pictures of the Chinese "coin factories". The bottom line is there are groups out there that could do the same thing as Mr. Carr. IMO if the 1964 Peace dollars were being produced in China many people that applaud Mr. Carr for his work wouldn't be as happy. |
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Moderator
United States
188342 Posts |
I do appreciate his original, but a fantasy coin like this makes me very uncomfortable. While I may not be officially against it, I am definitely not interested in buying one.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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and the fact that he's doing what no one else can does make me feel better. this isn't exactly true, just about every 15 year old on every street corner in China has a home made press made out of a old bicycle and grinder motor and can make any coin that has ever been produced with great accuracy. Someone above wants you to think DC is special because he can copy a coin design but actually this has been going on in China for awhile by many people. The only thing they had problems with was composition of the planchets, Now they can follow DC's suite and just get any old 30.00 silver dollar and strike it in any date/mm combination they want. As I said I do have some DC "ORIGINAL" designs in my collection (even though they do not fit anywhere really) just because I can appreciate the mastery behind it. It takes someone like DC to make their own designs but no one should ever say it takes a master to copy a design that has been out for almost 100 years because as I said you can find them on every corner in China |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4618 Posts |
Bryan1315: Okay. Now I don't know what to think. My "rant" from last night was saying just that. How can anyone, not just Mr. Carr, produce counterfeit coins, call them "Fantasy" and not break any laws? Does anyone know if he's been subject to any kind of scrutiny from the US Secret Service or FBI?
I see that a "Fantasy" coin is something that was never issued by the US mint and a counterfeit is a coin that was issued and someone has made on their own, but it's too close of a line. Can someone counterfeit coins as long as they put a note with the coin that it's not a US issue and shouldn't be used? I still say that at least the reverse die is counterfeit as it is an illegal copy of a US Mint die.
I think it's going to lead to big problems in the future for everyone in the field of Numismatics and if it's allowed to continue, the people selling fake coins *if they get caught* will use this fact as a defense in court. It's just asking for trouble.
AHHHHHHHHH! Now my head hurts!
ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637 Clean a coin that may be worth collecting? Please DON'T! When in doubt, leave it dirty!!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1704 Posts |
Late last year the Carson City Mint Museum used a canceled obverse die and an uncanceled reverse die and started striking coins for sale as souvenirs of the old Carson City Mint. In no time the feds were all over the Museum and ordered them to cease. At the time the feds arrived at the mint there were a few collectors in the souvenir shop to purchase some of the coins and were allowed to do so and all of the remaining unsold coins were taken by the agents. The museum was allowed to keep the dies and were instructed to never use them ever again. There actually were 1964 Peace dollars struck and "all" were melted with none being officially released for circulation. Mr. Carr, by using an exact replica of official Mint dies, can be prosecuted in federal court for counterfeiting as I do not see anywhere on his so-called fantasy dollars the word copy or replica. When the feds get around to investigating them they will most likely be confiscated. Ed ANA LM-3175 |
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Valued Member
United States
309 Posts |
He may be a fine artist but doing this "fantasy piece" does not qualify as art in any way. It's more like plagiarism...and the audacity to sign it.
And I am further suprised that so many collectors believe it is ok for him to do, because he apparently has such high ethical standards and wouldn't ever push it off as anything other than a "fantasy piece". Just because he can do it, doesn't make it right.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1064 Posts |
Yup, this is exactly how previous threads on Mr Carr's controversial dollar have gone. Healthy debate, gotta love it! I had read the stories online last year, and decided I would get one for my younger son's birthday; he's been collecting what he can for quite a few years, and I know he does like the Peace dollars. It was a big hit, and he really likes the Moonlight Mint site, and a lot of the original designs that can be found there. SO, I guess it's a matter of to each their own, and it's what makes this a forum. |
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Replies: 29 / Views: 3,668 |
First Page
Posted 06/17/2011 2:45 pm
