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When Your "Error" Isn't Really An Error At All...

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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2006  9:50 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been around here for a number of months parusing the posts, responding to what I can. I have gathered that there are a lot of people here who look through copius amounts of change and rolls for goodies. I have also seen a large number of times where the same basic questions were asked about the same basic things over and over. I am posting this not as an insult or admonishment for same, but as a helper to those who are finding what they think are errors, then going to the trouble to image such coins to post here. Hopefully this will save some time and effort. Administrators of this forum may (or may not) want to consider making this post a sticky for a while.

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THE BASICS

Doubled dies (and it is doubled with the D at the end, not "double") and repunched mintmarks as well as over mintmarks, and repunched dates are all considered "die varieties" - they are not classified as errors.

Errors involve either planchets or dies that were damaged or improperly made or hiccups in the striking process. Included are most things not mentioned in the above paragraph.

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What makes an ERROR collectible?

1. Visibility - if it's obvious at arm's length, it's likely valuable if it matches up with the other two rules below. If it takes magnification to show what it is, it's probably worthless (unless you're looking at a die variety, which isn't an error.

2. Rarity - If you've seen a thousand of them offered on ebay, or you ran into ten of them in a pocket full of change, it's probably worthless. If you don't know whether it's common, you haven't looked through enough coins yet. Put the coin aside, then look through another twenty-thousand coins. Then reassess your "put aside" coins. Just remember there isn't an error in every pocket full of change.

3. Market demand - Clipped planchets and off-center struck modern coins are a dime a dozen and carry very little premium value. It's a fact, because they are readily available - just look at the dozens for sale on ebay at any given moment. If it's rare and visible you can bet it has market demand.

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DOUBLING on COINS

Getting into die varieties is actually rather easy, but the first big hurdle to jump is figuring out the difference between hub doubling and non-collectible Machine Doubling. The best way to figure out that difference is to buy a genuine attributed doubled die and study it. They have characteristics that are quite unique to doubled dies which you will become familiar with if you study the real thing for a while.

A few simple rules...

1. Machine Doubling is flattened, shelf like, and has sharp edges. Hub doubling is rounded or beveled like the other letters, and usually has a soft transition with the doubled letters and numbers.

2. No form of non-collectible Machine Doubling has notching at the corners of the devices, and most types of hub doubling does. This is because squared corners are being impressed into the die at least twice in slightly different locations, leaving the impressions of the corners in each location. This is something like laying two square pieces of paper on a table. If they are stacked so you only see one piece of paper, they are in alignment. If they are stacked so you can see both pieces of paper, they are out of alignment and you will see a notch at opposite corners. Same thing happens in hub doubling.

3. Machine Doubling is common and very easy to find. If you find doubling in the first thousand coins you view, you're either really lucky or you've found Machine Doubling...my bet is on the latter. KEEP every example of Machine Doubling you find until you know the difference for sure, then spend all of them on some ice cream. Don't toss back your machine doubled coins just because someone told you they were machine doubled and were worthless. They make a good teaching tool to yourself to be able to pick out the difference, and make good reference even when you think you do know the difference.

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When to Render an Opinion...

If you KNOW what you're looking at in someone's images, state so. THEN explain why.

If you THINK YOU KNOW and aren't sure, it's fine to say you aren't sure, but make sure you throw that in for good measure. Someone else will come along and agree with you or point out what it really is and know they are teaching you too.

If you DON'T KNOW what you're looking at in someone's images, let them know you don't know and are guessing. I have seen a LOT of misinformation dealt out here as fact...just an observation.

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Enough with my manifesto. I thought posting here and explaining all the simplest answers to the simplest questions most often asked might help some people and might clear up some of the wasted effort in imaging valueless coins. Again, I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, just stating what I see as I see it.
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wrongalot's Avatar
United States
608 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2006  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppercoins, thank you for the information. I can say for myself that yes I post a lot. But my closest dealer is about 80 miles away, so can't get their expertise advice very often. So I look towards posts for advice, since I am still learning. As for buying an authenicated DD, well have you seen the prices they want for them when they are slabbed, not in everyones budget. I have tried to buy some, and they always go above my budget. So I pretty much am left out in the SNOW (at least right now, but I do read everything you post, and sometimes I still get confused, you post alot of information, but I learn more by seeing than reading. Thanks again for the information you always have for us.
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Sheepy's Avatar
United States
152 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2006  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sheepy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppercoins! Wow, thanks! I am going to earmark this post... I can't digest it all in a few readings... plus when something comes up I can reference it. I appreciate your knowledge and information... (I was hoping to write nickel... see, I finally got it!)
How long have you been collecting? Thanks again...
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thingee's Avatar
United States
2177 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2006  11:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thingee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Originally posted by wrongalot

Coppercoins, thank you for the information. I can say for myself that yes I post a lot. But my closest dealer is about 80 miles away, so can't get their expertise advice very often. So I look towards posts for advice, since I am still learning. As for buying an authenicated DD, well have you seen the prices they want for them when they are slabbed, not in everyones budget. I have tried to buy some, and they always go above my budget. So I pretty much am left out in the SNOW (at least right now, but I do read everything you post, and sometimes I still get confused, you post alot of information, but I learn more by seeing than reading. Thanks again for the information you always have for us.


You've made some good points. I believe there's been suggestions in the past about having a thread for pics on error coins, and which I have backed up. I believe such a thread would help this forum from such repetitious inquiries, esp, on error coins. I sympathize with errorcoins statement and with what wrongalot has stated. I think such a thread for error coins is a good idea.
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  10:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wrongalot -

Posting a lot isn't an issue at all. Posting the same questions over and over is the issue, and I'm not saying you're the one doing it. It's just that as an educator I can tell when a certain way of driving a point home isn't doing much good, and I see a little bit of wheel spinning going on here. 90% of all the subject coins in posts here are Machine Doubling or some very minor and common flaw. I would think if the point were getting through it should be more like 50% - or less.

As for buying an authenticated doubled die, I never said anything about slabbed, and never said it had to be expensive. I (or others) have doubled dies that clearly illustrate the point of what a doubled die is available for well under $20. You've just been looking at the wrong coins in the wrong place.

A thread for photos might be a good idea, but my suggestion would rather be a site for such gallery of images. The site would be easier to link to and should be maintained by someone who knows what they are doing, specifically. The problem with having a thread on a message board for such things is that anyone - even those who have no clue - can post there, and you end up with a half good, half bad place with gobs of misinformation. Without being able to weed out the misinformation, the place would do beginners no good at all.
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24155 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A thread for photos might be a good idea, but my suggestion would rather be a site for such gallery of images.


We have such a place that it could be done. Coin Community Gallery

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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would much rather answer the same questions multiple times that have to wade through the "the dealer bought a high priced nickel saying they always wanted one and now they are going to sell it for a profit" whining you have to wade through on other forums. I think this forum is a forum that newbie collectors can come and not get ridiculed when they ask a basic question that a person that has been collecting for 20 years knows from mere experience of seeing people ask the same questions to them over and over. I do visit the other forums because there is allot of good information there but I spend 98% of my time here because I feel I can make a bigger difference here than there because even though I am not an expert I have a little experience that I can share and I am a young enough collector to remember that not very long ago I was the one asking all the questions other people deemed stupid. In my opinion that is what this forum was started for, education to the uneducated collector to help them someday become educated and pass along the information they have learned along the way, so I say if there is a question you have and don't quite understand and want to be 100% sure heck whats the harm in posting the question, it may not only teach you but someone else that has the same question but used to other forums where you will get laughed at for asking the simple questions. When I first started this forum (this was my first coin forum) I was just getting into VAM Morgans and even when I had already authenticated the coin I would photo and ask questions to be sure my eyes wasn't playing tricks on me from looking at the coins for hours at a time and if at that time everyone laughed and pointed their finger at me for asking I would probably have already given up collecting all together, I guess its good I came here first instead of the other Bigger forums where the "experts" hang around to answer questions with questions rather than give you the answer you are asking for. I am at a point now where I can now help others when they ask questions about certain Morgan VAM's and only hope I answer them with as much patience I was shown when I was the one asking all the questions the "experts" find annoying
Edited by Bryan1315
12/01/2006 12:03 pm
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AuldFartte's Avatar
United States
830 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AuldFartte to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppercoins - Excellent information, and I thank you
I am not into errors, so I really don't know anything about them - until today, thanks to your post.

However, I am into "varieties" of large cents and Half Cents, and I love it when someone asks a question about those because I can actually provide an answer for them, and sometimes I might be right !!! Since this forum is called "Variety and Error Coins", I think your information will greatly assist those who want to know what they have found.

Bryan - I completely agree with your position on the questions. I'm SO glad people were (and still are) patient with me when I ask a "stupid" question. If I had not received a ton of patient answers from the experts, I would have become discouraged and I would probably collect Beanie Babies by now.

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mishap-coins's Avatar
United States
344 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CC I thank you for your detailed writing with facts and I just like alot of others are trying our best to learn and I am sure there is a bit of hope and excitement when one posts a picture of a coin thinking they have found something of value and then only to find out it is null void in the value department. Boils down to education of coin collecting.I guess books along with forums and information websites have so much to offer.


I just received an email from Ken about his new book and I ordered the book by Ken Potter & Brian Allen in hopes it may keep me from posting pictures and asking questions that may be to replicated.

http://koinpro.tripod.com/Books/Str...chBookFS.htm

I have noticed over the years being on forums that one can see those that are new collectors begin to post repeated questions and pictures. Then after some time these new collctors seem to begin point out to the new collector that comes in behind them what it is they are showing in pictures or asking about. Is good to watch them learn to become more educated about coins.
A thought is to maybe have a highlighted (Beginners & Repeated Questions)page of sorts that has but one reply so a moderator can post a link to the answer rather than having to explain in long threads time and time again to the new collector. Like the link to the thread you just written here. This way maybe it could be a reference site for all as well. Just me rambling.
MC
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do intend on starting a gallery of images of Lincoln cents on coppercoins.com that will illustrate (eventually) hundreds of examples of coins with doubling, both doubled dies and non-collectible doubling that will be at least in my opinion a good resource for beginners to tell the difference. I hope to make it easy to navigate and easy to use, and profusely illustrated. That should be a start.
Forum Dad
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bobby131313's Avatar
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24155 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2006  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A thought is to maybe have a highlighted (Beginners & Repeated Questions)page of sorts that has but one reply so a moderator can post a link to the answer rather than having to explain in long threads time and time again to the new collector.


I'm not so sure I agree with that on a wide-scale level. I think one of the charms of this forum is that all questions, common or obscure, new member or old, get personalized answers.

If this was a support forum for a piece of software, I would agree. But we're far from that.

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wrongalot's Avatar
United States
608 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2006  03:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coppercoins, I really love your site, I look at it at least a 1/2 dozen times a day looking to see my coins match any on your site. I have found some, but can't get a good enough picture, your pictures are perfect. Wish I could find the right lighting and all that, have been doing somewhat better, but still not as well as I wished. Thanks again for your participation.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2006  03:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Originally posted by bobby131313

I'm not so sure I agree with that on a wide-scale level. I think one of the charms of this forum is that all questions, common or obscure, new member or old, get personalized answers.

If this was a support forum for a piece of software, I would agree. But we're far from that.


I agree there is no cookie cutter answer that will fit the bill to each persons questions that will help them to understand the point that we are trying to get across to each person asking
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2006  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tend to agree that the cookie cutter approach will not work. What will work (if used properly) is a gallery of images sectioned by subject type that will show the user what typical examples of common oddities look like so they might be able to skip the trouble of photographing, uploading, and posting about every small oddity they find, and wait for the truly wierd coin to pop up before going to all that trouble. Something that educates them as to what Die Deterioration Doubling, eject doubling, and other forms of Machine Doubling look like as well as how to tell the difference between Machine Doubling an doubled dies with image examples, and the difference between a die crack, die chip, die break, and Cud. Simple things like that which I see repeated here over and over again. We might be able to proactively answer some of these questions and save the hunters the trouble of having to bother with them. That was my point.
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United States
751 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2006  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add texasmick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would welcome such a resource
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thingee's Avatar
United States
2177 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2006  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thingee to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Originally posted by texasmick

I would welcome such a resource


As would I. My point wasn't to remove personalized messages on errors, but have a guide, a reference. You certainty are a very dedicated man CC. Thanks for putting up with us.
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