Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer 300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Help To Max Out Capabilities Of Old Point And Shoot Digicam

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 5,164Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2011  1:48 pm Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all.

I have recently been interested in taking better pictures of my coins. Up 'til now I've tried to hold the camera steady at arm's length. I've spent the last few weeks reading lots of photography posts on this and other coin forums. I've experimented by changing only one variable and comparing side-by-side pix. I've definitely improved a lot. Despite all this, I still see pictures of people holding coins on their fingers that are better than mine!

I see lots of beautiful pix that you guys take, and don't hope to achieve that level of expertise. I just want to maximize what I can do with what I have. Ideally I'd have a well lit, well focused coin, about 400-800 pixels wide per side. At least good enough for grading or selling. If I get good enough pix, I am seriously considering imaging the favorite parts of my collection. This will take a lot of time so I want to do it right and not miss any obvious improvements.

Camera: I am using a circa 2003 Olympus d565. At the time it was ~$2-300. It does not have manual white balance, aperture priority, or any of the other things some newer point and shoots have. It saves as jpeg only. Super high quality = 2288 x 1712 pixels.

Computer: I have a Macintosh computer and am using the GraphicConverter (free) program. It does most of the simple things that photoshop does and a lot of complex things I don't understand. Most of the functions you mention are included, but may be named differently.

The first thing I did was build a copy stand to hold the camera steady. It's from scrap wood and $2 of nuts and bolts. It's not 100% level / perpendicular / parallel, but close enough. As someone else said, steadying your camera will make your pix better than 95% of those on ebay!

The lighting is mostly by two 4' fluorescent lights at the 12:00 position a few feet above. Not ideal I know, but that will be my next issue to address.

I've been focusing on the in-camera vs in-computer things I can modify.

In-Camera
Exposure: Ranges from +2.0 to -2.0 in 0.5 increments. I've found 0.0 or +0.5 to look the best.
Metering: ESP or Spot. I'm told it's best to center, and my tests seem to confirm it.
White Balance: No choice of manual, but have auto, sunlight, cloudy, tungsten, or fluorescent. My tests show auto or fluorescent to be best.
Macro: I know macro is supposed to be better, but I honestly see little difference when it's used. Perhaps I'm just not getting the coin close enough to the lens.
Zoom: I elevate the coin to about 6-8" from the lens and then zoom as much as possible (75-90%) without losing auto-focus.

In-Computer:
White Correction: Click on the spot that should be whitest.
Auto Levels: Don't know what this does exactly, but it works well!
Sharpness: I don't use this but it's available.
Other: Most of the common photoshop functions are available.



After lots of testing, and making lots of picture grids for comparison, I've finally settled on a default camera and program protocol:

Default:
Camera Settings:
Flash off
Macro mode
Exposure +0.5
Spot (center) metering
WB Fluorescent
Zoom as much as autofocus will allow
Timer (10 seconds!)
Computer Functions:
1. White Correction
2. Auto Levels
3. Crop
4. Save as jpeg with 100% quality (biggest file, least compression)


I've posted sample pix in following posts. They have been downsized (either saved at lower quality or decreased resolution) to be reasonably sized. All original test pictures were cropped at 400x400 pixels. That was before I started using the zoom.


I guess I've only got a few questions.

1. The first is about white balance. I have two ways to adjust the whiteness: In-camera the best 'white balance' settings are auto or fluorescent. In-computer I use the 'white correction' and click the part of the image that should be whitest (as 12 o'clock as possible). I don't know if I should be using both or one or the other.

2. I'm unable to 'fill the sensor' with the coin. At most I get ~40%. I don't know if that's my technique or a limitation of my camera. Any tips?

3. I feel like I'm not delving enough using the 'auto-levels' function, but I can't argue with one-click success. Should I be doing more with the graphics program?

Any other ideas to improve? Particularly with the graphics program or in-camera options.

In the immediate future I intend on setting the coins on a dowel with a black background, a la Doug Smith. Then I will be having an out-of-focus black background rather than the present immediate off-white paper. I will then start experimenting with lighting.

Like I said, I'm just trying to maximize what I can do with easy adjustments. Let me know if I'm missing anything obviously helpful.

Sincere thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge so freely,
-wheatiefan
Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2011  1:49 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Here is the setup. There is a real piece-of-junk camera in place of the olympus.

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


Here it is in place, and showing the lighting.

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


All the sample pix have been taken on top of that beer bottle, which is ~8" away from the lens. I can zoom in some but not 100% without losing focus. I've also tried placing books under the bottle to raise it, but still lose focus at about the same image size.

If nothing else, this might help someone else build a cheap setup to take better pictures,
-wheatiefan

Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2011  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Here are some examples of the in-camera settings.

Even if this doesn't help answer my questions, it might help future readers trying to figure out what all those settings do. I've done a lot more comparisons than these, but only sharing the pertinent ones.

Exposure:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

White Balance:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

Metering:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

Macro:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


Thanks,
-wheatiefan

Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2011  1:51 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Here are some examples of the computer program (Graphic Converter) functions:

Auto Levels & White Correction:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


Thanks,
-wheatiefan

Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2011  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some example pix.

They are taken with my above described "default settings" for camera and graphics program.

After taking so many pix of the test coin, I was tuning out the effects of lighting. They are evident in some of these pix.

Most of my collection is circulated US and world coins. Shown are a few different metallic compositions. I know there's a problem with photographing lustrous silver, but (luckily?!) I don't have much of that.

Aside from the lighting, I am happy with them. Certainly much better than holding the camera at arm's length! They appear close to "in hand".

They are cropped to 700pixels per side, or 700x1400 per image. They've been saved at 85-95% quality to be ~250-300kb.

The Sudanese coin (the one with the militant pigeon) is circulated but red:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

The French coin is lustrous aluminum bronze:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

The French colony coin is lustrous aluminum:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

The ancient coin is dirty patinated bronze:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

The Lebanese coin is circulated silver:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


Thanks,
-wheatiefan
Pillar of the Community
aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2011  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi, and welcome to the of photoing coins!...It can be very demanding to figure ones camera out, and with all the comparisons you have listed..You certainly have been systematically evaluating your results, just not getting what you want out of your camera...your camera stand is good,, it doesn't not need to be high end, although its nice to have the cash, it will get the job of steadying the camera so there is no "shake" or out of focus areas..... I notice you use "auto" on many settings....the auto I find allows the camera's internal computer to figure out what it "THINKS I WANT" and when I turn it off,,,and start the next day I have
NO CONSISTENCY. for my pictures...some are good others are terrible...one must use the full MANUAL settings the camera has.. NO AUTO...anything....
You have the camera stable now in its holder...one must find where/ the distance.. from the object to the coin your specific camera likes, that's not so hard don't move the camera, move the coin...The biggest thing I see is your lighting...
I had the same problem.....your lighting, "florescent" or even the tungsten lights have a "HUE" to then..a color which comes out into the final picture....I went to Walmart or Home depot to get some cheap lamps, and then some GE daylight bulbs, as the florescent bulbs gave me a yellow effect on my final pictures, and the tungsten a blue color...the daylight bulbs gave a cleaner.. but too much light which is easier t0o compensate for...The other issue of lighting is where you place them?and WHY....this is an important aspect of macro photoing many have stated, 12:00 and 2:00 o'clock..But why....I had to SEE HOW the lighting effects the coin through the cameras view screen...to understand the differences...It took me a while before I caught on...one light..much like your over head florescent
does not allow enough light to truely highlight the coins surface to get enough light into the sensor to result in a great or even good enough photo...One desktop lamp withing 12 inches. puts enough light on the coin to blaze one side but it allows shadows to be in certain parts of the coin so the overall out come is some of the coin has great luster and the other half is in shadows, lacking of detail and luster or DETAIL...2 lamps help considerably...one must look at the FIELD of the lights reflection through the viewer to see if you have enough light or have too much, as your lighting should be beaming directly down upon the coin...
too much lighting...and you will see lack of detail...
not enough or wrongly positioned you will see areas that are darker...
Over all I think you have been very systematic, and you KNOW what your trying to do, just not seeing what you want... I think your lighting is the problem...as well as In my humble opinion..NEVER use auto...always use manual..once set. there are less variables to consider and your in control..with auto you are not...Let us know how this all turns out...Photo's for fun was my last post...and much like you, we have some ways to go...but it is fun when you get headed in the correct direction....
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2011  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't reply in depth yet; I'm about to leave the house. More tomorrow, but one question first:

What looks best to you? You've obviously already devoted a bunch of thought to things - what is your best result, in your own eyes? How did you get it?
Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2011  04:30 am  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What looks best to me is kinda how I ended my first post, with the 'default camera and program protocol'. I arrived at those settings after experimenting with the one coin. Then I went and took the pictures of the 5 coins in my last post (which I think was downsized by imageshack) and did the same functions on them in the graphics program.

Just because I lay out all the possible exposure pix and decide 0.5 is best, and all of the white balance pix and decide fluoro is best, etc, etc, doesn't mean they're all the best when combined. There might be some hardware or software or optical reason I don't understand why the settings conflict or shouldn't be used in this combination. I don't think any of them are set at 'auto' any more.

I kind of classified the categories that people try to control as: camera-related, lighting, and post-processing. So for now I'm trying to max out my camera-related settings and at least get a good handle on the post-processing. Then worry about lighting.

I've liked some of the other poster's virtual collections and was thinking of imaging at least my favorite coins, if not most of them (I have too much free time). Like I said, I'm happy with the 5 pictures I posted, aside from the lighting. They are a good size and clarity. But if it's possible I could improve by pressing a couple buttons or making some minor changes, I'd like to find out before I start taking 100s of pictures.


-wheatiefan
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/17/2011  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're really getting some excellent results from your camera, and your investigative methods can't be faulted. I'm having a hard time coming up with advice.

I_will say this, though: concentrate on maximizing the performance of the camera and lighting before considering postprocessing. That's more for others who may be reading this thread than yourself; you've integrated all the elements rather nicely.

The moment you change the lighting, you're going to probably want to switch to the Auto white balance setting. Tungsten may work with standard A19 bulbs, but none of your "bespoke" settings will be happy with halogen lights, for instance.

Your Exposure settings will vary by coin, of course; don't be afraid to twiddle them between dull copper and lustrous brass, for instance.

All-in-all, though, your post is an excellent narrative for how to approach coin imaging with inexpensive cameras, and stands as a great lesson for those reading it.
Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi again all.

I've been doing lots of trial and error. I'm happy with my current output and thought I'd share.


Here is a pic of my current setup:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam


The base is a black plastic coffee can lid, with a black plastic drywall anchor in the middle. This elevates the coin off of the background. The coins are 6-8" away from the camera and the camera is 90-100% zoomed in.

I have two jansjo led lamps, providing light from about 11:00 and 1:00. They are about 6-7" away at a 45-60* angle. If I want them to come from as vertical as possible, I have to physically hold them next to the camera. I cannot manually white balance with a coffee filter, I have to use preprogrammed settings. I find 'auto' or 'tungsten' settings work best, and by default now use auto.

I've tried with and without a milkjug to diffuse the lights. It definitely makes a difference, I'm just not sure if one is more desirable than the other.

Post-processing, I can 'magic wand' the entire background and set it to black. I can no longer do the white correction, as it asks you to click on the spot of the image that appears whitest, which is hard without the white background. I don't adjust the sharpness or any other levels, either, but am open to suggestions. My old one-click 'auto levels' just brightens the coins a little but nothing dramatic.

I'm getting my silver dollar sized coins about 1200-1300 pixels, and my nickel sized coins about 800-900 pixels across. I think that's about the best I can get with my camera, considering a full size image is something like 1700 x2100.

The majority of coins I will be taking pictures of are base metal or circulated silver world coins.

Open to any and all suggestions,
Thanks,
-wheatiefan

Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some identical pix with a standard setup on the right, and shot through the milk jug to diffuse the light on the left:

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam
Pillar of the Community
wheatiefan's Avatar
United States
510 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Check wheatiefan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add wheatiefan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some full size pix (saved at 85% quality to decrease file size):

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam

Help-To-Max-Out-Capabilities-Of-Old-Point-And-Shoot-Digicam
Rest in Peace
Buddy's Avatar
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are getting great photos. Tonight, after buying a few things at a coin show, I decided I would spend the evening taking pictures and figuring out how to post them.

I gave up after just an hour. It is maddening. I even tried using a digital microscope but the lights were a problem.

You are miles ahead of me. I do admire your persistence toward excellence. I guess the important thing is to get the coins to look like they do in hand. After my brief exoperience this evening I am beginning to think that is impossible.

But after seeing all the work you have done... I am convinced to keep trying because clearly the effort is worth it.

Pillar of the Community
Lobby's Avatar
United States
548 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lobby to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great pics. You have a bit of a research scientist in you, the way you linearly plan your experiments and evaluate your results.

I'm on the same path as you are, although a bit behind.

Congrats on your progress. Any of these coin pics would help you sell your coins on any of the internet web sites, IMHO.

  Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 5,164Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.43 seconds to rattle this change. Forums