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 Replies: 14 / Views: 3,411 |
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New Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
Hello, I am from Malaysia and have just joined CCF. I am not a coins collector but have inherited some coins from my father quite sometime ago. Some are quite common coins but there are a few which I find quite interesting. One in particular is a 1800 CAROLUS IIII 8 Reales coin minted in Peru(assayer initials I.J.). I think it is an unusual coin as I fail to find one like it on ebay and other websites. It may be a fake. The Reverse appears to be quite normal. The Obverse, however, shows a bust that is not that of CAROLUS IIII but possibly that of FERDIN VII. What is also unusual is that the bust faces LEFT instead of right. An examination of the rim shows what looks like alternating circle and rectangle   pattern. The coin weighs 25.31 gm. I hope members find it interesting for discussion. I am looking forward to a learning experience in coins. Best regards. Edited by XanderC
09/27/2011 11:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
G'day & welcome to CCF.
I visited Malaysia many times, but not in the last 10 years, although I look forward to returning before too long.
Someone more expert than I will comment on your coin.
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Moderator
 United States
188167 Posts |
 to the Community! I moved your post to the World Coins and Commemoratives forum for more attention. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Welcome to the forum.
That is a very interesting coin. In my collection I have two similar and they form their own sub-Category of Fraud. These are Re-engraved portraits and I refer to them as Category 4 - Altered Originals.
For some reason (lots of time perhaps) some people ground off the King's portrait and re-engraved another portrait it it's place. One of mine is almost a duplicate of this one but the second has applied a Pirate Bandanna on the King's head in a clear attempt at humor. The left facing portrait of Ferdinand in place of Charles IV may be a political statement as well - because Charles IIII had serious problems mentally.
But in either case - the coin is a FRAUD - because in the process of engraving the new head some silver was removed. How much depends on the skill of the artist who did it.
The Altered original category also includes Clipped and hollowed out coins under distinct sub-category headings. As it currently is planned these coins will appear in the appendix to our upcoming book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs.
Sorry but right now I can't post pictures of any of my collection because all of my picture files are on my old PC (which crashed) and I am still sorting through the 26,700 photos of coins on the backup discs. They are all copied onto my new PC but finding them now is NOT EASY. The original photos were all transferred for the book project BEFORE the crash so it should not cause a further delay in publication.
BUT I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO ADD THIS PARTICULAR COIN TO THE BOOK. THESE (OLD ONES) ARE DEFINITELY RARE.
I hope by saying that we don't get a lot of new ones being made like the flood of Hobo nickels.
Edited by swamperbob
09/28/2011 12:17 am
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New Member
 Malaysia
6 Posts |
Thank you jbuck for posting the topics to the World Coins and Commemoratives forum.
Thank you swamperbob for your very interesting comments on the coin.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
XanderC : if you want to sell (or offer :D) the coin, I'm sure swamperbob will be interested.
Despite having been altered, he is specialized in forgeries - and unlike regular collectors he actually collect copies / modified coins. You would get a better price from him than any other regular collector.
Edited by MathieuMa
09/28/2011 06:42 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
MathieuMa You have it EXACTLY right. I would love to buy the coin but failing that I would like permission to use the coin's picture in my book.
I would estimate it is worth about $100 if the host is original and a bit more if the host is a contemporary or Boston type counterfeit.
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New Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
MathieuMa: Thank you for your suggestions.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts |
Sorry guys, the rules are firm about buying and selling here. Stick around XanderC - there is a lot to learn here, and the prerequisites to sell will fly by. |
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New Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
xshift : Thank you for drawing attention to the Rules. I appreciate it.
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New Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
Swamperbob: I have no objection to you using the coin's pictures if they will serve to enhance your book "Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs".
For now, I am keen to learn more about the coin as I find it very interesting. Is it possible to say by studying the pictures whether an original or contemporary or Boston type coin that has been modified? Is it likely or unlikely that it had been circulated and used for trade for a while or it is simply just the work of a coin forgery artist?
I am also curious to know what the three dots at the nose/chin of the picture mean.
I have inspected the coin rim by means of a magnifying glass. It shows (with the obverse facing upwards) a string of alternating rectangles (5 Nos.) and circles (4 Nos.) making a total of 9 rectangles and circles with no top edge border line at the head of the bust. The circles and rectangles fall rapidly to the bottom edge of the coin in two opposite directions and go round rim. The size and shape of the circles and rectangles appear to be quite consistent.
Do these observations mean anything?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I was able to locate my file finally - that contains my Counterfeit Portrait photos - however, I was not able to post the photo here even when I reduced its size.
But in any event - I will try later.
My coin has ONE raised dot in front of the re-cut portrait. I do not know why?
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New Member
Malaysia
6 Posts |
I suppose that the topic on this subject ends here, sadly with some unanswered questions.
I would like to thank, however, those who have contributed to the discussion particularly swamperbob for his expertise which I find enlightening. I take note of his interest in the coin.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
XanderC If you get to 50 posts and can sell on the forum let me know -I would definitely be interested in the coin.
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I don't feel the word "fraud" should be employed in the description of this coin. Re-engraved coins form a very special sub-section of numismatics, and there are many reasons behind their existence, but fraud is not one of them.
However, such coins have their rightful place in any publication about fake and otherwise altered 8 reales, and I hope this one will be in Swamperbob's book!
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Replies: 14 / Views: 3,411 |
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Posted 09/27/2011 3:13 pm
