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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
I type "R" and I get are. Yeah Terry. I have had the exact phenomenal experience only yesterday. I had noticed it in the comments of others as well, and I thought that they were trying to be funny. Must be something built into the site program. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Anyway, the pitting thing, (I had been told by the experts) was caused by rust on the die faces. Okay, I had no reason to doubt that, so I accepted it without question until now.
I had imagined that since air conditioning was basically a 20th century invention, that dies were kept in humid storerooms. The humidity reacted with the annealed steel forming rust spots, eating into the steel, causing the pitting. Pitting, as a progressive act, would require a lack of treatment (other than use). Seemed rational to me as this is relative to metals exposed to moisture.
Now, however, the pitting is caused by die use. Those experts sure are a bunch of lucky guys, being able to have their cake and eat it too, without question due to perceived status level.
I have never seen any of the states of V-22 or V-22A.....so, this fact, coupled with my lack of credentials as a numismatist might lead me to say something foolish like the progression is actually...... vam-22A LDS.....then vam-22A EDS.....and then vam-22.
I know that the die state call was not yours Oz, and it falls right in line with some other stuff that I have heard about die state progression.
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Pillar of the Community
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This is the paradox of vamming.
So we are clear on terminology. par·a·dox#8194;
1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
Oh, we are clear Terry....painfully so. Let me be clear too, I don't believe that there are any paradoxes here..... just ignorance.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Vamming is numismatic forensics. It is understanding all of the dynamics that were in play relative to 19th century machinery and the time constraints that were imposed on the coiners.
I did not know pitting was progressive and like you, it is something I will need to look in to to more fully understand the why and how.
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Pillar of the Community
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Don't waste your time Terry. It is an absurd notion.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
could these be the beginning signs of " Die Deterioration" instead of "RUSTING DIES"? That is an interesting notion, and quite possible... |
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Pillar of the Community
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Beats me Gene, I've never laid eyes on these vams before, so all I am going on is just the term 'pitting'.....(which I have to admit is pretty stupid of me). Please disregard everything I have said in this thread.... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
This defintion comes from another forum. A pitted coin shows raised numerous, often concentrated areas of small raised dots. Pitting is caused by rusting and/or other environmental effects. It typically occurs late in a die's working life, so pitted coins are usually not found with prooflike surfaces. Pitting also typically occurs on the reverse of a coin. This is because in its resting state, the reverse die is on the bottom while the obverse die "hangs" overhead. Therefore, water or other environmental impurities (wow, how often do you hear water discussed as an impurity?) can more easily collect and rest on a reverse die to cause a pitting effect. Pitting is often seen in multiple forms for one particular date and mint mark (1921-P, 1885-P, 1897-P, 1904-O, and others). Perhaps environmental conditions specific to the mint and the year of strike contribute to pitting. It is noted that only one pitted coin comes from the San Francisco mint. (1921-S VAM 1C) |
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I guess one should start with the ability of rust to form on higher and softer steel...does lower grade POLISHED steel, rust easier than harder Polished steel?, the dies are polished at the beginning so as to have perfect fields, as everything else is below the die surface...
It is my understanding that harder grade steel has a higher carbon content, and can rust easily, faster than lower grade steel....
One question could be...did they lightly oil the die's or did they stay in the press until needing to be changed......
one thread somewhere I read suggested that they changed the dies at the end of the day, but why? they would have to reset the press each day?..Even then would they oil the surface to prevent rust?
I think the dies were set in place and were not re-installed each day...could it be possible, that the heat from the pressing of the coin, could draw moisture from the air? But as the pitting only happened on some years, not ALL years, So that this was not the case...could it be that with some years, the annealing process resulted in a weak surface, where the surface skin could deteriorate
and chip, resulting in what we see as PITTING?...
The general process was probably consistent over the years and few years are known for "pitting"....
What are some of your thoughts for the occurance of RUST or PITTING and why?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Water when it converts to steam expands at a rate 1,700 times to 1. When this occurs in materials such as concrete, the resulting damage is known as spalding.
All metal is crystalline. I do not know what water content is in annealed steel or if this plays a role in the process or not.
Edited by Ozland
08/16/2010 10:40 pm
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I remember that thing about the dies being changed out daily also Gene. I remember who said it also. The only practical purpose that I could see for that would be accountability concerns. No dies in the presses means no unauthorized / unsupervised striking.
As for the pitting thing, the definition from the other forum is idiotic at best. Condensation will develop on the bottom of a hanging object just as easily as it will on the top of a sitting object, or on the wall of a vertical surface. All of a sudden, I am quite convinced that this 'pitting' isn't really pitting caused by rust or moisture after all. Would not the heat from striking vaporize these pools of water and other impurities?
Has anybody ever given any thought to something that actually causes pitting in the real world of today? When metal contacts metal at high pressure, what occurs? Nothing? Okay, turn out the lights, and look again. Yes, and what effect does repetitive sparking have on metal? There are definitely more, and more plausible possibilities than condensation on press number 6, but none on presses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, and so on.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I almost hate to mention this but harmonics may play a role as well. From an on line dictionary. har·mon·ic
-adjective
1. pertaining to harmony, as distinguished from melody and rhythm.
2. marked by harmony; in harmony; concordant; consonant.
3. Physics . of, pertaining to, or noting a series of oscillations in which each oscillation has a frequency that is an integral multiple of the same basic frequency.
4. Mathematics .
a. (of a set of values) related in a manner analogous to the frequencies of tones that are consonant.
b. capable of being represented by sine and cosine functions.
Think of this as a tonal pitch. Repeated striking and heat coupled with harmonics cause thing to fracture and break.
Anyone remember the old Memorex commercial with Ella Fitzgerald. She hits a high tone and a glass shatters. replay the Memorex tape and the glass shatters as well. This might account for press number six acting up but not the others.
Edited by Ozland
08/16/2010 11:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Don't get me wrong now guys.....I am not saying that I think that repeated sparking caused this effect. That was only a for instance possibility. What was used to grind, and polish the dies? What effect would emery dust have if left on the dies prior to striking? There a good number of possibilities that would coincide with the die specific effects of 'pitting' with a significantly greater likelihood than localized, concentrated condensation.
I have never seen a pitted coin, so let me ask, is this pitting typically in the same locations as clashes may occur, or is it randomly all over the place? Do we have a good picture of pitting? Were the mints using corrosive acids to treat the dies? Did the press operate in the dry, or was oil used for its moving metal parts? Did the press create heat? What happens when oil is heated to the point of scorching? I can think of lots and lots of possibilities beyond water.
How long would condensation take to cause pits in a die face? How long did a typical die last in a press? (At a strike rate of 90 per minute, or 3,600 per hour, or 28,800 per eight hour shift) how long did a die last? 60,000 strikes or maybe three days? Is it even slightly feasible to think that pitting from condensation might happen that fast?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I am liking the way you are thinking Terry. It is very refreshing to see a thinker (rather than a follower) every once in a while. Yes, I like it very much.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Okay, I am now thoroughly convinced that moisture had nothing whatsoever to do with rusting dies or that progressive pitting crap, but now my idea of die state progression is out the window along with it.
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Posted 08/16/2010 5:37 pm
