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 Replies: 271 / Views: 17,104 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3076 Posts |
Ok back to VAM-IT as many other things have been going on...The lesson of this last thread was....Many times a coins attributions is found by the obvious broken star or letter easily seen doubling stars, ear ect..
Other times its found in a closer examination....the finer details...
In this case...the sextuppled stars are only found on two vams...
vam55 and 75A...the difference is found in the ear as only van 75A has the die chip in the ear....I will post another that is simpler to attribute....Keep in mind that often the finer details are the discriminating factor for the final attribution...Thanks for looking and contributing....
Gene
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Getting back to VAM-IT.. there has been many great issues for so long that have been comming up.. All of them come into the vamming arena. MAny BIG changes are under way as we speak...Yet lets not forget this simple thread, an understanding how to attribute a Morgan VAM. The clue's in this last post are pointed out...Most of the time we have to figure out what the clues are....And this is the point of this latest post........to show the pick up points.., key points , non normal features...that are listed in the VAM listings..so one can find the correct attribution....while they are given now, it is my intent is for others as they search there own coins to follow this thread and learn the process..and see why the posted coin has its assigned VAM number.. It does take time... Send the answer to this latest quest...and VAM-IT...Also explain why you believe its the VAM number you believe it is...so we can all follow....in the understanding... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Give it a go.....go and guess its VAM 203...Ooops there are not 200 vams for this year and mint mark...Sorry...Give it a go...   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
would any one like to take a stab at this one? Don't be shy...  |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
OK. I'll do this "stream-of-consciousness." 1878-CC attribution starts with the location and orientation of the mint mark. Are the letters close together, or far apart? Are they high and tight to the wreath, or lower? Is there any stuff inside them (that's important)? Are they level with each other? Tilted? This coin looks to me to have kinda wide mint mark spacing, level to each other and not tilted. There isn't a bunch of crud inside the mint mark. I go here: http://www.vamworld.com/1878-CC+ReversesTime to look around. Knowing the mint mark, and the B2 reverse (parallel arrow feather, no Long Nock), I can narrow it down some. But only *some* - I don't know if they call this spacing "Medium" or "wide." So, I start clicking links, looking for features. The first link to a VAM which seems to meet what I already know is VAM-13, so I have a look. The mint mark spacing and orientation looks just right. Lo, and behold, a rather unique marker shown for VAM-13 also appears on Gene's coin - the two die gouges in the wing. Eureka! That was easy. Um, no. VAM-13 ain't the only one with those die gouges. *sigh* What else we got? Well, we also got VAM-27 with those die gouges. OK, what are the differences? Well, to begin with, VAM-13 has easily-seen doubling in the date on the "1" and "7." Gene was nice enough to include a detail pic of those (heh), and the doubling does not appear. I guess it's 27, then? Maybe. Let's go look: http://www.vamworld.com/1878-CC+VAM-27OK, what characterizes VAM-27? Die chips, front of forehead, eyelid, right of wheat leaves. Same as VAM-2B, in case we need to reference more info. But we don't. Gene's calculated images don't tell the whole story, but they do tell what we need to know. The detail pic of the eyelid gives it away; the chips are there, and so is the attribution. VAM-27. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
 Well done, and a "terrific narration" of how one goes about researching a VAM's attribution...one must develop a routine or system, by which one can research the Primary diagnostic features, such as date and Mint Mark locations, and other secondary diagnostic features such as die chips, gouges and cracks,, Which must be noted: BY THEMSELVES (secondary features) are not WHY the VAM was assigned an attribution number...though at times secondary features are noted/listed in the VAM descriptions. But don't bank on them always being in the main category's description...They are found within the VAM's.attribution folder with there photo's.... "PUP's".OR. Primary Pick Up points.. .are usually what listed in the main category.....these are the main points why the VAM was assigned a VAM number....It is because within the numbering system based upon "die marriages" that these subtle die chips and gouges ect..differentiate Vams....from the Parent VAM or die marriage.... Over the years multiple combination's of dies have been found, in so much as one obverse die has been found to be paired at a different time with another reverse die.... One develops a basic system in order to have an Idea of how to cut the possibilities down down to a manageable level.... In this instance we find that by the date the same and the Mintmark the same...but the die chips and all of the features both Primary and secondary are not found on one VAM...though some features are shared...Only VAM 27 LDS. is correct.....I'll find something new in a while..... I encourage others to speak on there ideas of a system or routine that helps them to attribute |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Nobody can learn *every* VAM, Gene. But it is within our ability to get a general feel for what's important, across the board, for attributing VAMs which don't have some "smoking gun" feature that makes it obvious. A few factors are common, and the first things you should look at when contemplating any Morgan dollar: Date location. How many denticles is the date from the point of the neck? What's the orientation of the digits? Are they nicely curved with the rim? Tilted? Mint mark location (if any). Is it low? High? Tilted? Look at the lettering and stars. More than a few VAMs have hub defects, or obvious die defects, that affect the final look of these features - broken stars, broken serifs, doubling that's so obvious it shows in even small photographs. Look at the wreath, particularly around the bow. This is a place where significant polishing artifacts appear on Morgan dollars, in/around the bow and between leaves, and although not a top-level attribute such polishing is often the final clue to an attribution. Look at LIBERTY. Closely. A large number of varieties are characterized by doubling or obvious scratches/polishing line in LIBERTY. These are things you do before you even start trying to attribute the coin. They're the details which will help nail the attribution, the features which allow us to reduce the possibilities from 150 to 10 for any given issue. It's a system, and you have to approach it in systematic fashion. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
"THIS IS" the heart of what VAM-IT is all about...My intention amid all of the other subjects of vamming, currently going on...Of which there are many....To touch ground with many here who are just starting to research the basics with out trying to comprehend the advance knowledge that is frequently discussed her and elsewhere online...Its a big wonderful subject...but Its so VAST as to understand all the facets of the process of minting and the resulting varieties  , some where one must stop and smell the roses and have a chance to just look at them...And smell...  I can't plant rose's I got a brown thumb, not a green one....but I think I can hope to show that there is a systematic approach, by examples for attribution...and along the way I get to help and learn in the process of attribution..Higher thinking minds can often make money, but they are in position to do so $$$$$...but money does make a higher mind... while KNOWLEDGE IS KING as the saying goes..it does not mean if you don't have the cash its out of your reach..it just takes time and research..to understand the process by how these things came into being...Be a collector/dealer or hobby guy.. IT IS OUR'S..... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Here's a new one....Lets see how it foes...   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Ok, what to look for,,, Date and MM position...Is it a near date? far date or normal date?..Is the MM normal, high, set left or right?
and id there any other distinquishing features? These are the place to start!! any Ideas?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5639 Posts |
I would like to make a suggestion, I would ask that the pictures should be as close as if you had the coin in hand.I mean the pictures you have posted Gene, on this coin, are hard to see the finer details, or are you trying to tell us something being this far away!!!
I can NOT make out any distinct nuances, Please consider........I am going blind!!! LOL.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
LOL. Glad you have taken the time to enquire My point is...the details are here...Granted they are not from 12 mega pixle photo's Rather they are cut down to better than normal online photo's..Like ebay....HOWEVER one tool....often over looked is to right click and save image..to your folder where windows allows you to expand or blow up the photo to see the finer details...in this case the details are there if you expand the photo.. Start form there....lets see if this can EXPAND our learning...and our tools, of insight and how to enhance our in site...Gene |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
From the first photo we can determine it is a far date, while browsing VamWorld we can chose(in most cases for the dates) , most of the time listings are sorted by date position or by reverse..Mint mark position..IMPORTANT.(Lessons).these are the starting references we all follow...., These are the basic starting point referencing points to begin figuring to narrowing down what ANY VAM may be...there is more..but this is the basics... |
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Valued Member
United States
104 Posts |
maybe this has been addressed in here, but I'm on like page 4, and if I don't tell this, I'll forget. ( I remember nothing),
I used to be good friends with a tool maker with Catapillar. They worked with dies and some pretty bad injurys could and did happen when one would break. They checked them, but sometimes the stress fractures are internal , not external. Sometimes you would hear the metal groan, they'd flip the switch , and back off, then remove the old die.
It would have been impossible to stop things so quickly in 1987, not to mention the metal wasn't nearly as strong I would guess. sometimes the dies can just crack in half, but somtimes they burst, and others they explode.
I can imagine the dies for the coins would react with stress fracture in much the same way. Too bad there are no Doctors records, if someone could find those, I bet that would tell a story. deep cuts, to arms , hands, and faces and arms , anywhere really. They can break apart, or sometimes shards can blow out and they are sharp!Plus, HOT!
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Replies: 271 / Views: 17,104 |
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Posted 01/12/2011 01:27 am
