Lincoln Cent Struck Off Center

This is where we get into an interesting concept. I am going to pose some questions and then add some responses. Could be a good discussion...

Does someone who is an uneducated buyer who will pay $20.00 for something worth $3.00 really make it worth $20.00?

ANSWER: I don't think so. This is , to me similar to folks paying $25.00 for a First Year of issue, Blah, Blah, Blah "run of the mill" 1964 Kennedy half dollar as sold on some of those TV coin selling shows. A seller is ripping a buyer by taking advantage of sales hype that might be true but really doesn't make a coin rare or valuable. This is a seller banking on the ignorance of the buyer. Unfair and unethical in my humble opinion. This often happens on ebay.



The next question is: Is it right for an educated seller on ebay to list something, hype it to death and turn a $3.00 coin into a $20.00 sale?

ANSWER: I don't think so. I used to sell a lot on ebay, I haven't in awhile but I will be eventually. When I sold, many times I would place a buy it now price that would be at a normal retail price for the coin. That would indicate to the buyers what I, as an educated seller thought the coin was worth. Then the coin would be described accurately. I would educate the buyer about the coin. No hype, no BS.

If an educated seller (dealer) puts up a $3.00 coin and hypes it to see if some dummy will pay $20.00 for it, that educated dealer is, in my humble opinion, ruining the hobby for others. Someday the buyer is going to find out that his $20.00 purchase is worth Three bucks unless he can figure out a way to scam another ebay buyer into taking it off his hands. It perpetuates a problem.

Also, there actually are a lot of honest brick and mortar dealers out there that get stuck with the sad task of telling someone with a bunch of stuff that cost someone thousands that the stuff is worth very little in comparison to the purchase price.

There are many honest ebay dealers so the prior comments don't apply to them. There are guys and gals that I can name that sell on ebay (but I wont advertise) who list accurately, educate the buyer in their ads and expect fair prices. The practices of the "not so hot" ebay dealers hurts the good guys as well. That's unjust in my opinion.


The next question? Since the hobby changes, (so lets take VAMS as an example). Is it right for someone to sell a coin on ebay that was purchased for $10.00 and have it turn out to be a rare VAM and now sell it for a thousand dollars?

ANSWER: This is absolutely alright! There is no ethical question here. The fact that the hobby might have come around to realize a rarity can work to the benefit of the collector.

A few examples of how the hobby has changed can make this point.

Years ago, a "frosted" proof as they were called was nice, but no big deal. you could get a "frosted" proof Franklin half, for example pretty inexpensively. Now, since the hobby has come to appreciate the beauty of a nice Cameo Franklin, the prices have escalated.

Many years ago, Die varieties were small potatoes, Now a 1969 S DDO Lincoln is worth a fortune.

The way the collecting patterns change is a legit part of the hobby.

In any case, a ripoff will always be a ripoff. Someone selling a coin with glue on it as a rare error will not cause every other coin with glue on it to increase in value. It just means that someone was goofy enough to buy someone's junk. Looking at what some uneducated buyer spent on a coin is no way to give the coin a value.

My advice is to educate yourself as to what has value and what doesn't. Then educate yourself on how to identify what you are looking at. Paying for a coin with Machine Doubling because you don't know the difference between a doubled die and a machine doubled coin is an education issue.

The fact that some folks pay good money for machine doubled coins, in this example doesn't make them worth anything.

People can collect anything they like and pay whatever they want for it. When others think that prices paid that are not realistic for something become real based upon unrealistic expectations, a serious problem develops.

Anyway...enough for now. This is not a lecture, even if it sounds like one...It is here to throw out some thoughts for discussion.

Thanks,
Bill

I just submit to the average collector that one way of doing it counts on ignorance and one way of doing it counts on an educated buyer.

To prey on the ignorant rather than educate them just bothers me. To see others make excuses for dealing that way bothers me. We are all entitled to an opinion but if I were a buyer on ebay, I'd rather buy from me:-)

While I totally agree with Bill in theory, I think Half has hit it on the head. Values have been and always will be established by the marketplace. Like it or not ebay, with it's vast array of buyers and sellers, is fast becoming one of the major venues for selling/buying coins in the world today. Uneducated buyers will always be part of the valuation process and you just can't discount it. To do so would be sacrificing earnings in the name of opinion. From a completely capitalistic position, to not put your product you intend to sell on ebay and let market forces work as they will is cutting yourself short. I am never going to presume what something is worth to someone else, nor is it my job to educate them. As Half stated, be as accurate as possible with your description, post good pics and get the heck out of the way.
Jim

I actually agree with all that was said above. My problem with auction sites is not with the folks here. It's when values or prices are inferred by the sale of what really amounts to pieces of pocket change that gets sold on ebay and other auction forums.

I've seen, in the past some guy selling Lincoln cents from the 1980s that have a rough surface that because there is a lump under the nose hypes it into a "Rare Lincoln Cent with Snot" and getting $5.00 for it. That to me is a diservice to whoever buys a coin like that. There's junk like that all over some auction sites and uneducated buyers are falling for it.

If some guy puts up a coin that is worth $3.00 and ends up with a $5.00 bid, I have no problem. That is the market at work. If someone puts up something worth zero and sits back and says" somebody will buy it if I hype it right" and then gets $5.00 thats just wrong.

My issue is that some people create a market for something that is entirely worthless by most numismatic standards and then get a ridiculous amount of money for it because someone is dopey enough to buy it.

As I said, I used to set my "buy it nows" for several reasons. One is that a quick turnaround "ain't" bad and the other was so that some uneducated person won't bid higher. I sorta set a limit on how much I would accept for a coin or small antique item.

I wasn't concerned about how much I got over what a coin would normally be worth. I was concerned about sleeping at night. I always made a profit and I never had to worry about a buyer getting good value for his money.

Jim
Your out of luck I did a search on e-bay----nota
Norm

Most people here know where I stand on the issue of deriving values from closed ebay auctions - it's not a realistic measure of the market. End of story.

Same thing that has been said time and time again...

Because less than educated people will but die cracks on ebay for $10 each doesn't make them worth $10 each. Looking on ebay to justify value in things that have no recognized value is a pipe dream, end of story. Now...to back you up, if you're looking for a price for an 1835 bust half in AU and you paruse through ebay for closed auction prices, you'll find it to be a relatively accurate measure of the value of an 1835 bust half in AU, considering you average 10-20 auction ending prices...but all too often I see people find some silly die crack and claim it to be worth half a mollion dollars because someone on ebay offered a similar one for that kind of money. Of course this is exaggerated, but a lot of truth can be seen in that statement with some people right here.

So, I guess what I am stating is that ebay, because of the large number of people selling there that have no clue and the large number of people buying there that have no clue, is not a good or realistic measure of the die variety and error markets.

And to that end, it's also not a good measure of the high grade market unless you specifically search for PCGS or NGC graded coins, because none of the other companies count, and raw coins are graded all over the board in ebay auctions.

quote:
"I choose to see that the market place is vast with different foundations for value. Moving between these can be very rewarding as my friend has shown. He buys coins at a auction full of coin snobs who by his standard are undervaluing them. We think he is uneducated while he knows we are."
My guess is this guy Knows his market! poor uneducated fool.

Norm