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1797 Draped Bust Dime-Is This Surface Abrasion? Correctly Graded?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2021  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins.

How were these old coins cleaned? Were they dipped in something? Do they get darker as a result? PCGS straight graded this coin as AU(53), despite the details looking quite strong. Is there a chance that coins darken AFTER being slabbed? Or did PCGS just think this coin was borderline and since 1797 dimes are so rare in high grades they gave it the benefit of the doubt?


1797-Draped-Bust-Dime-Is-This-Surface-Abrasion?-Correctly-Graded?
1797-Draped-Bust-Dime-Is-This-Surface-Abrasion?-Correctly-Graded?
1797-Draped-Bust-Dime-Is-This-Surface-Abrasion?-Correctly-Graded?
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United States
5686 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2021  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list
That holder is less than 10 years old, and it seems unlikely that it would have toned that color in the holder since it was graded. Your new photos show a lot more color than your original photos. Were they both taken from the DLRC site?
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758 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2021  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
Yes, Zurie, they were.
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 Posted 04/14/2021  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
Coins can certainly tone in under 10 years and in a TPG holder as well. I've had ANACS older white holder coins turn from light golden yellow/brown to an almost hideous dark brown in a matter of a year or two. I think it's more due to two separate factors;

1. Was the coin previously cleaned or exposed to chemicals? Things like a dip solution, or heavy Sulphur paper envelopes?

2. What was the storage environment like? Humidity levels, light or dark and if light (what type) florescent, incandescent, sunlight?

Either of these things can directly attribute to a coins appearance and/or make it change in a matter of time.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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United States
758 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2021  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
Thanks, Westcoin. This is enlightening and disturbing. Obviously, I don't know this particular coin's history, but the consensus here is that people suspect a previous dipping to create this darker tone. I haven't seen enough 1796-1797 dimes in my day to know what is common among them for coloration/toning/luster though. When I first saw this coin I thought of it as a higher-end straight graded example, probably one of the finer examples of a rare coin (in my understanding the 1797 dime is almost as rare, if not as rare, as the 1797 half dollar, yet only trading for a fraction of the price.
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United States
9796 Posts
 Posted 04/16/2021  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
One of the weekly coin newspapers did a really good article on artificially toning a slabbed coin after slabbing. It could have been Coinweek or Numismatic News it was definitely in the mid 1990's (94 or 95) when I read it. They talked about putting the slabs of white Morgan dollars and some other types of US coins into Zip-Loc baggies then pumping various gasses into them some we toned within a day or two as I recall. Very hard to tell they were artificial, but the photos being on news print and early color weren't the best to tell. Fascinating article never less.

"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2021  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
Thanks! I reached out to David Lawrence Rare Coins to ask about this dime. It has sold, but the guy told me that in person that is some luster and that they believe the toning to be natural. There is so much to learn, so thanks all of you for helping me do so!
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United States
4472 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2021  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list

Quote:
Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins.


With the nice toned coins bringing a premium, the market has been saturated with AT coins. The skills of the AT coin doctors have improved, and some can duplicate NT with chemicals. NGC has relaxed their standards of NT to feed the market's desire for colorful toned coins. PCGS is holding the NT line better than NGC, but PCGS still puts some questionable colorful toners in straight holders. The starting place to identify AT is to learn what NT looks like. Each series and grades can tone different. Learn how to identify NT album, wood, envelope, end role, paper, bank bag, cloth, cigar box, TPG holder, etc. Old silver coins with original skin and eye appeal NT toning are hard to find and command a premium.



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United States
11917 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list
Wow, this is a rare coin. Rarer than the 1796 I just purchased at the same grade. I estimate that there are far fewer than 50 coins that grade as high as or higher than OPs coin. In the link below, you see that the finest 16 star 1797 dime, the MS66 Pogue example has the extensive die crack running over the date. The marks on the obverse fields through the hair of liberty appear to me as a common planchet flaw. We are talking about 18th century technology where ingots were put through rollers powered by horses to create the silver sheets from which planchets would be punched out. The Mint had a lot of trouble with getting the rollers to produce sheets at tight width specifications so that the planchets would be the correct weight, thus needing extensive weight adjustment. Surface flaws were common at the dawn of U.S. coinage. I don't know enough to know if the coin is AT but the toning and color look very pleasing to my eye. Somehow I didn't see this when this was posted but a belated congratulations to OP for this fine and rare acquisition.

https://www.PCGS.com/coinfacts/coin...6-stars/4462
Bedrock of the Community
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11917 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list
Also that eagle's head is superbly struck. Certainly a better head than any small eagle coin that I own. I've never seen one where you can see a concentric circle fully formed around a completely visible eagle's eye. Even mint state coins don't show that. This is a very choice coin and I agree that it deserves a better grade than on the holder and may have been net graded. I would buy it if it was for sale at anywhere near book.
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United States
758 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
When given a second chance to get this coin (after the original post, in which I did not own the coin, but was dreaming of one day owning a coin like it), I actually took the opportunity, after much deliberation. I respect everyone's opinion about AT and despite these opinions, I love the coin's details--and DL was really willing to work with me on price (and trade-ins!). This coin is by far the fanciest acquisition in my collection. I know everyone says this, but it looks better in person!

1797-Draped-Bust-Dime-Is-This-Surface-Abrasion?-Correctly-Graded?
1797-Draped-Bust-Dime-Is-This-Surface-Abrasion?-Correctly-Graded?
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758 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
@Numismatic Student: I think there are 30 or less 1797 dimes (with 16 stars) in this grade or higher. It is probably in the top 30 specimens for 1797 dimes in general, though. I also really like the eye--again, at this time, DL also had a 1796 dime in an AU(50) holder that was CACed with some bits of the same green toning, but in weird, less attractive patterns. The wear was a lot more substantial, though, and I found the coin to be ugly. For some reason, this dime spoke to me a lot more than other similarly graded specimens did. I am sure that there may be 1796 AU(55) dimes that look a little nicer, but I don't mind this one representing its type in my collection with its good strike and bold details.
Edited by Adam590
11/12/2021 1:04 pm
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list
I think it looks great. Congratulations on your acquisition.

Heritage has this 1796 10c in AU55 that I was considering purchasing if I didn't win the one yesterday at auction. I think it is very attractive too, but that eagle looks like a plucked chicken with no feathers and a flat head compared to yours.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dime...bnail-071515
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758 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list
I thought I saw this one in Sunshine Rare Coins' ebay store--the toning is gorgeous (as it is on so many of his coins!), but yeah, the details on the reverse underwhelm me for an AU(55). My 1797 was less than this (even before the partial trade-ins!), and I wouldn't trade :).
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11917 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2021  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list
A lot of dealers are offering their coins for a fixed price through a consignment at heritage. I think it's a newer thing they're trying out. It's a good idea and Heritage gets a cut of dealer sales to third parties. They're sort of killing it right now. Let's see how long it lasts.
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