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1797 Draped Bust Dime-Is This Surface Abrasion? Correctly Graded?

 
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 Posted 03/28/2021  12:22 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This coin was on David Lawrence's site--I love looking at coins I can never acquire. This coin is beautiful--I love the toning and I love the detail! Is this detail a little strong for AU(53)? And are the surfaces on the obverse (right of the head) abraded/damaged? This coin straight graded as AU(53), so was this coin likely net graded? Or am I off and this problem is not significant? And is this really AU(53) details as opposed to AU(58) details?





Edited by Adam590
03/28/2021 1:04 pm
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 Posted 03/28/2021  05:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks more like a planchet flaw then abraded/damaged.
John1
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 Posted 03/28/2021  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hard to believe this was net graded, but you must know the answer.
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 Posted 03/28/2021  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love the die cracks, I hate the color. I think it would grade straight PCGS gives way too much leeway on older federal coinage from 1700's IMO. Should it be details? Maybe, it does have a scratch or gouge in front of the portrait, but it's more the surface appearance that kills this coin's look for me, like it was messed with and has retoned, and not in a good way. Not an original surface by any means in my book.

AU53/55 is my call, and if I owned it it would be in my trade box looking for an upgrade ASAP.
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 Posted 03/30/2021  08:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
for me questionable color. the details on this coin imo is stronger than AU53. the minimal wear on the bust, cheek, hair, leaves, eagle wings and even the eagle eye is fully defined. from a sharpness and wear standpoint the coin looks like its in the AU55/AU58 range. I'm thinking they may have netted it down due to color and/or missing luster

who slabbed this?
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 Posted 03/30/2021  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was PCGS straight graded as AU(53). This is why I was asking--to my untrained eye, I was seeing AU(55-58) details with color that seems questionable. This being said, a family friend who coins stored in a bank vault for more than 50 years (including draped bust silver half dimes), and those old holders definitely enabled some colorful album toning. This coin looks to be a little different from those examples, though.

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 Posted 04/13/2021  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins.

How were these old coins cleaned? Were they dipped in something? Do they get darker as a result? PCGS straight graded this coin as AU(53), despite the details looking quite strong. Is there a chance that coins darken AFTER being slabbed? Or did PCGS just think this coin was borderline and since 1797 dimes are so rare in high grades they gave it the benefit of the doubt?




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 Posted 04/13/2021  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That holder is less than 10 years old, and it seems unlikely that it would have toned that color in the holder since it was graded. Your new photos show a lot more color than your original photos. Were they both taken from the DLRC site?
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 Posted 04/13/2021  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, Zurie, they were.
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 Posted 04/14/2021  10:46 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coins can certainly tone in under 10 years and in a TPG holder as well. I've had ANACS older white holder coins turn from light golden yellow/brown to an almost hideous dark brown in a matter of a year or two. I think it's more due to two separate factors;

1. Was the coin previously cleaned or exposed to chemicals? Things like a dip solution, or heavy Sulphur paper envelopes?

2. What was the storage environment like? Humidity levels, light or dark and if light (what type) florescent, incandescent, sunlight?

Either of these things can directly attribute to a coins appearance and/or make it change in a matter of time.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
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 Posted 04/14/2021  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Westcoin. This is enlightening and disturbing. Obviously, I don't know this particular coin's history, but the consensus here is that people suspect a previous dipping to create this darker tone. I haven't seen enough 1796-1797 dimes in my day to know what is common among them for coloration/toning/luster though. When I first saw this coin I thought of it as a higher-end straight graded example, probably one of the finer examples of a rare coin (in my understanding the 1797 dime is almost as rare, if not as rare, as the 1797 half dollar, yet only trading for a fraction of the price.
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 Posted 04/16/2021  09:17 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the weekly coin newspapers did a really good article on artificially toning a slabbed coin after slabbing. It could have been Coinweek or Numismatic News it was definitely in the mid 1990's (94 or 95) when I read it. They talked about putting the slabs of white Morgan dollars and some other types of US coins into Zip-Loc baggies then pumping various gasses into them some we toned within a day or two as I recall. Very hard to tell they were artificial, but the photos being on news print and early color weren't the best to tell. Fascinating article never less.

"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 04/17/2021  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam590 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks! I reached out to David Lawrence Rare Coins to ask about this dime. It has sold, but the guy told me that in person that is some luster and that they believe the toning to be natural. There is so much to learn, so thanks all of you for helping me do so!
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 Posted 04/17/2021  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins.


With the nice toned coins bringing a premium, the market has been saturated with AT coins. The skills of the AT coin doctors have improved, and some can duplicate NT with chemicals. NGC has relaxed their standards of NT to feed the market's desire for colorful toned coins. PCGS is holding the NT line better than NGC, but PCGS still puts some questionable colorful toners in straight holders. The starting place to identify AT is to learn what NT looks like. Each series and grades can tone different. Learn how to identify NT album, wood, envelope, end role, paper, bank bag, cloth, cigar box, TPG holder, etc. Old silver coins with original skin and eye appeal NT toning are hard to find and command a premium.



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