| Author |
 Replies: 20 / Views: 3,913 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts |
This coin was on David Lawrence's site--I love looking at coins I can never acquire. This coin is beautiful--I love the toning and I love the detail! Is this detail a little strong for AU(53)? And are the surfaces on the obverse (right of the head) abraded/damaged? This coin straight graded as AU(53), so was this coin likely net graded? Or am I off and this problem is not significant? And is this really AU(53) details as opposed to AU(58) details?   Edited by Adam590
03/28/2021 1:04 pm
|
|
|
|
Moderator
 United States
56855 Posts |
Looks more like a planchet flaw then abraded/damaged. John1  |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Hard to believe this was net graded, but you must know the answer.  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
I love the die cracks, I hate the color. I think it would grade straight PCGS gives way too much leeway on older federal coinage from 1700's IMO. Should it be details? Maybe, it does have a scratch or gouge in front of the portrait, but it's more the surface appearance that kills this coin's look for me, like it was messed with and has retoned, and not in a good way. Not an original surface by any means in my book.
AU53/55 is my call, and if I owned it it would be in my trade box looking for an upgrade ASAP.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
|
Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18714 Posts |
for me questionable color. the details on this coin imo is stronger than AU53. the minimal wear on the bust, cheek, hair, leaves, eagle wings and even the eagle eye is fully defined. from a sharpness and wear standpoint the coin looks like its in the AU55/AU58 range. I'm thinking they may have netted it down due to color and/or missing luster
who slabbed this?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
758 Posts |
This was PCGS straight graded as AU(53). This is why I was asking--to my untrained eye, I was seeing AU(55-58) details with color that seems questionable. This being said, a family friend who coins stored in a bank vault for more than 50 years (including draped bust silver Half Dimes), and those old holders definitely enabled some colorful album toning. This coin looks to be a little different from those examples, though.  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts |
Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins. How were these old coins cleaned? Were they dipped in something? Do they get darker as a result? PCGS straight graded this coin as AU(53), despite the details looking quite strong. Is there a chance that coins darken AFTER being slabbed? Or did PCGS just think this coin was borderline and since 1797 dimes are so rare in high grades they gave it the benefit of the doubt?    |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5685 Posts |
That holder is less than 10 years old, and it seems unlikely that it would have toned that color in the holder since it was graded. Your new photos show a lot more color than your original photos. Were they both taken from the DLRC site?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
Coins can certainly tone in under 10 years and in a TPG holder as well. I've had ANACS older white holder coins turn from light golden yellow/brown to an almost hideous dark brown in a matter of a year or two. I think it's more due to two separate factors; 1. Was the coin previously cleaned or exposed to chemicals? Things like a dip solution, or heavy Sulphur paper envelopes? 2. What was the storage environment like? Humidity levels, light or dark and if light (what type) florescent, incandescent, sunlight? Either of these things can directly attribute to a coins appearance and/or make it change in a matter of time. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts |
Thanks, Westcoin. This is enlightening and disturbing. Obviously, I don't know this particular coin's history, but the consensus here is that people suspect a previous dipping to create this darker tone. I haven't seen enough 1796-1797 dimes in my day to know what is common among them for coloration/toning/luster though. When I first saw this coin I thought of it as a higher-end straight graded example, probably one of the finer examples of a rare coin (in my understanding the 1797 dime is almost as rare, if not as rare, as the 1797 half dollar, yet only trading for a fraction of the price.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
One of the weekly coin newspapers did a really good article on artificially toning a slabbed coin after slabbing. It could have been Coinweek or Numismatic News it was definitely in the mid 1990's (94 or 95) when I read it. They talked about putting the slabs of white Morgan dollars and some other types of US coins into Zip-Loc baggies then pumping various gasses into them some we toned within a day or two as I recall. Very hard to tell they were artificial, but the photos being on news print and early color weren't the best to tell. Fascinating article never less. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
758 Posts |
Thanks! I reached out to David Lawrence Rare Coins to ask about this dime. It has sold, but the guy told me that in person that is some luster and that they believe the toning to be natural. There is so much to learn, so thanks all of you for helping me do so!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
Quote:Sorry to drag this one back, but I am interested in learning more about how to distinguish artificial coloring on old silver US coins. With the nice toned coins bringing a premium, the market has been saturated with AT coins. The skills of the AT coin doctors have improved, and some can duplicate NT with chemicals. NGC has relaxed their standards of NT to feed the market's desire for colorful toned coins. PCGS is holding the NT line better than NGC, but PCGS still puts some questionable colorful toners in straight holders. The starting place to identify AT is to learn what NT looks like. Each series and grades can tone different. Learn how to identify NT album, wood, envelope, end role, paper, bank bag, cloth, cigar box, TPG holder, etc. Old silver coins with original skin and eye appeal NT toning are hard to find and command a premium. |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11911 Posts |
Wow, this is a rare coin. Rarer than the 1796 I just purchased at the same grade. I estimate that there are far fewer than 50 coins that grade as high as or higher than OPs coin. In the link below, you see that the finest 16 star 1797 dime, the MS66 Pogue example has the extensive die crack running over the date. The marks on the obverse fields through the hair of liberty appear to me as a common planchet flaw. We are talking about 18th century technology where ingots were put through rollers powered by horses to create the silver sheets from which planchets would be punched out. The Mint had a lot of trouble with getting the rollers to produce sheets at tight width specifications so that the planchets would be the correct weight, thus needing extensive weight adjustment. Surface flaws were common at the dawn of U.S. coinage. I don't know enough to know if the coin is AT but the toning and color look very pleasing to my eye. Somehow I didn't see this when this was posted but a belated congratulations to OP for this fine and rare acquisition. https://www.PCGS.com/coinfacts/coin...6-stars/4462 |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11911 Posts |
Also that eagle's head is superbly struck. Certainly a better head than any small eagle coin that I own. I've never seen one where you can see a concentric circle fully formed around a completely visible eagle's eye. Even mint state coins don't show that. This is a very choice coin and I agree that it deserves a better grade than on the holder and may have been net graded. I would buy it if it was for sale at anywhere near book.
|
| |
Replies: 20 / Views: 3,913 |
Posted 03/28/2021 09:12 am
