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Just Read Something Interesting About Larger Roman Coinage.

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 Posted 03/08/2026  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list
tdziemia, Good point, they perhaps had different weights hammers for various coin sizes.
Edited by livingwater
03/08/2026 10:00 pm
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 Posted 03/09/2026  02:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list
We simply don't know exactly how "the Roman mint" worked at every stage of Roman history, We have a few detailed accounts from specific slices of time, but a full detailed history was either never recorded, or has now been lost. I'd probably lean towards "never recorded", as minting of coins was not only a closely guarded trade secret, but a state secret - after all, if it were widely known how to make coins, then some enterprising criminal types might just try to make their own.

That being said, we do have some records of what mint operations looked like at certain time periods - such as during the reign of Hadrian, when large finely detailed bronze and brass coins were being struck. There is no mention anywhere of any device resembling a "drop hammer", or anything other than the sheer brute force of the malliatores ("hammermen"). All of the surviving illustrations and depictions of ancient Roman coin-making show a three-man team at work: the guy who picks up the finished coin and puts down the next blank (the suppostor), the guy carefully placing the hand-held reverse die on top of the blank (the signator), and the big guy with the hammer (the malliator).

Some of the surviving illustrations of mint activity (such as this fresco from Pompeii) show workers taking things out of a furnace with tiny tongs. It's debated whether these are coin blanks being heated, or coin dies being forged and hardened. We also have the curious case of "centration dimples", indentations found on certain large bronze coins (both Greek and Roman) which look for all the world as if some tongs had grabbed onto the coin blank while it was so hot it was semi-molten. Numismatists have long argued about what centration dimples are, and how they were made; the "tong-marks" hypothesis is a strong candidiate.

There thus seems to be strong evidence that at least sometimes, it was likely that tougher-metal coin blanks were heated to softness before being struck. The main argument against the Romans doing this as routine practice seems to be that it must have been so time-consuming and labour-intensive to heat up each coin blank that much prior to striking, that it doesn't seem it could have been viable from an economic and time-budget perspective.

Either way, we are left to speculate about what kind of mysterious magic was at work in the Roman mint: whether it was some powerful drop-press for which there is zero actual archaeological evidence, or an equally evidence-free method of heating a whole bunch of copper blanks to near-melting very quickly and cheaply.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 03/09/2026  05:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list
Thanks Sap for adding more information, history. It really is somewhat of a mystery how ancient coins were made through the centuries. The biggest ancient coin in my collection is a Ptolemy II bronze from Alexandria Egypt, Zeus/eagles, at 40mm 64.4 grams it's huge and with center indentations. I read somewhere these may be centration marks to help keep the coins from becoming off center when struck or are "dimples" made by tongs during the process of forging the planchets. I've seen these cicular indents on some Roman Provincial coins but I only have a couple. Here is my Ptolemy coin and Nicopolis, Thrace, Caracalla/Demeter, 29mm.with dimples or whatever the word to call them is.

Just-Read-Something-Interesting-About-Larger-Roman-Coinage.
Just-Read-Something-Interesting-About-Larger-Roman-Coinage.
Edited by livingwater
03/09/2026 07:10 am
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 Posted 03/09/2026  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
I would think some smart materials scientist would be able to tell the thermal history of the coin (how hot it was likely heated at the time of forging). But that would mean destroying some coins to prep them for the scanning electron microscope. And if it were a two step process (forming blanks, then reheating to hammer the coin), the interpretation could get kind of difficult.
But it would be shocking if there were never a PhD thesis produced om something like this.
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 Posted 03/09/2026  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list

Quote:
I would think some smart materials scientist would be able to tell the thermal history of the coin (how hot it was likely heated at the time of forging). But that would mean destroying some coins to prep them for the scanning electron microscope. And if it were a two step process (forming blanks, then reheating to hammer the coin), the interpretation could get kind of difficult.
But it would be shocking if there were never a PhD thesis produced om something like this.

"Destroying coins" isn't the main complication, as archaeology all too often finds coins that are damaged or otherwise in such a poor state that collectors and archaeologists alike are all perfectly fine with slicing them apart for science. The complication here is, the metals that are hard enough to need this kind of treatment (brass bronze and other copper alloys) are also quite prone to change over time. There is usually a thick layer of patina which is where the details of the coin's surface is actually preserved, with surprisingly little raw metal remaining. In that sense, ancient bronze coins are often more like fossilized coins than actual preserved coins. So I'm not sure that the crystalline history of the base-metal alloys remain constant and reliably interpretable after being buried for 2000 years.

I do know, for example, that silver "crystallizes" over time, becoming more brittle than the original alloy was. I haven't heard this phenomenon reported for bronzes, perhaps because corrosion and patination outweighs such factors.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 03/10/2026  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list

Quote:
tdziemia, Good point, they perhaps had different weights hammers for various coin sizes.


A hammer of a given weight in a contraption powered, say, by gravity will always strike with the same force.
On the other hand they didn't have thermometers to enable them to always strike the blank at the same temperature.
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 Posted 03/10/2026  08:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list

Quote:
The complication here is, the metals that are hard enough to need this kind of treatment (brass bronze and other copper alloys) are also quite prone to change over time. There is usually a thick layer of patina which is where the details of the coin's surface is actually preserved, with surprisingly little raw metal remaining.


Agreed, which is another reason the interpretation would get complicated. But heating would affect the center of the coin, too (high thermal conductivity would quickly transfer heat to the interior of the coin, though presumably the desired state for striking is with the surface softened enough to flow but the core still rigid enough to resist too much plastic flow).
It's easy to imagine a time-temperature series on a set of bronze blanks to see what kind of internal crystal morphologies develop.

Maybe it's even been done already by a corporate R&D lab somewhere that deals in forging bronze (those places do lots of good work that never gets published for intellectual property reasons).

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 Posted 03/18/2026  10:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
Lemme get this straight .
It is reasonable to assume that Roman engineers constructed machines capable of hurling cannon ball sized 'ballista' upwards of a quarter mile and impacting targets at over 100 mph
Yet we are to assume they relied on "Moe Larry & Curly" when issuing one and two ounce bronze coins and medallions

Sorry .
No sale !


Just-Read-Something-Interesting-About-Larger-Roman-Coinage.
https://romanobritain.org/8-militar...rtillery.php
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 Posted 03/18/2026  10:29 am  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list

Quote:
Lemme get this straight .
It is reasonable to assume that Roman engineers constructed machines capable of hurling cannon ball sized 'ballista' upwards of a quarter mile and impacting targets at over 100 mph
Yet we are to assume they relied on "Moe Larry & Curly" when issuing one and two ounce bronze coins and medallions



That's a pretty decent false equivalency

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 Posted 03/18/2026  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
Yet whenever I have seen ancient coin minting "technique" demonstrated it has always been drachm sized planchets utilizing high purity (usually silver) metal
But I would really like to see this 'sestertius' of mine replicated

37mm 45.90 grams

Just-Read-Something-Interesting-About-Larger-Roman-Coinage.
Just-Read-Something-Interesting-About-Larger-Roman-Coinage.

But I won't hold my breath either .
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 Posted 03/18/2026  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
Well let's try one last time shall we ?
Thirty five years ago I managed/coached a Little League Baseball team
For what it's worth we won our division !
But I digress !
One thing really really puzzled me about these kids
I grew casually accustomed to seeing young males 10-11 years old weighing approximately 100 lb hitting home runs over a fence 200 ft away .
Good enough
But then I had the honor of bringing a young lad to Fenway Park
Yankees vs Red Sox !
It struck me then
How could it be that adult males literally bursting their uniforms weighing 200 lb and looking like an Adonis have such difficulty hitting the ball 400 ft ?
Twice as strong should equal twice as far no ?
Well a few years later I stumbled on an "Idiots guide to physics"
The answer is never as simple as it might at first seem

If we reason that the force to launch a baseball 100 ft is 10x10 (x²)
Then in order to launch 200 ft is not double !
The answer is x³ or 10x10x10

I suspect the physics involved with the minting of coins is not at all dissimilar
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 Posted 03/18/2026  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list
The British TV documentary series Time Team did an episode with some experimental archaeology regarding the making of large bronze coins in ancient times. Now "experimental archaeology" in this context is really just "taking modern replicas of the tools we know the ancients had and trying to use them", without actually using a time machine to watch how ancient peoples actually used them, so given that caveat, the show came to the following conclusions:
- Cutting blank planchets off of a tube of copper, "cob-style", simply wouldn't have worked - copper is too tough to make a clean cut with ancient technology, and the amount of labour needed to round off and flatten the blank properly simply couldn't have been time-effective. As such, individual casting of blanks seems more probable.
- Cold-striking a copper or bronze coin using the big-guy-with-a-hammer method simply didn't work - virtually no detail came through onto the finished coin, even after multiple strikings.
- Heating the blanks before striking worked a treat and created very authentic-looking coins.

"We tried striking coins cold and it just didn't work" seems to be the consistent result from experimental archaeology; assuming the archaeologists haven't missed some obvious flaw in their reasoning, the resultant conclusion is that they must have been struck hot, despite the extra care and labour this would have had to entail compared to cold striking. Even hot-striking requires a 2 or 3 blows of the hammer to fully strike up the details on a large bronze coin, which perfectly accounts for the doubling often seen on large Ptolemaic bronzes.

Quote:
Lemme get this straight .
It is reasonable to assume that Roman engineers constructed machines capable of hurling cannon ball sized 'ballista' upwards of a quarter mile and impacting targets at over 100 mph
Yet we are to assume they relied on "Moe Larry & Curly" when issuing one and two ounce bronze coins and medallions

We have plenty of physical and graphical evidence of Roman military hardware. We don't have any such evidence for the use of drop-hammers or similar mechanisms to aid in coinage production, despite having a few surviving depictions of mint activity.

Could the ancient Romans have built a coin press? Sure. We know they had powerful water-powered drop hammer technology because we've found physical archaeological evidence for them at mine sites in Spain and Wales, used for crushing ore. Did they use them for striking coins? There's no evidence, so until and unless some kind of actual evidence that they did so comes to light, we have to assume they didn't - that's just how archaeology works. Archaeology is a science, so it's all about what the surviving evidence states; discussing how things "might have been" without such evidence is really just writing historical fan-fiction. Maybe at some point in Roman history, somebody with access to water-powered drop hammers tried to experimentally adapt those drop-hammers to strike coins; maybe it didn't work well, or maybe they concluded it was simply easier to buy a couple of hefty slaves and go back to making coins the old-fashioned way. If this happened, no physical evidence survives and no written records either. All we can conclude from the archaeology is "It doesn't appear to have been used".

It's not entirely unlike the question of the ancient discovery of the Americas. "Could the Romans have sailed to America?" Yes, technically, we know from archaeology and written records that their ships had that capability. "Did the Romans sail to America?" Well, there's no physical evidence one way or the other for this either in America or in the Mediterranean, nor in surviving written sources, apart from the old "absence of evidence" argument (for example, if the Romans had visited the Americas, why were there never any pumas or jaguars in the Colosseum?). So we have to presume the answer is either "No, they didn't", or "If they did, they somehow did it in such a way that it left no permanent mark on Roman society".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 03/18/2026  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
Coining presses tend not to be extraordinarily 'violent' machines
In fact the process is rather slow and methodical
My analogy intended to emphasis the force required
Not the speed with which it is applied
For impressing an image .
Rolling a large stone over a die set would achieve the same
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 Posted 03/19/2026  02:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list
Around ten years ago I posted here a Britannia reverse type As of Antoninus Pius
While I cherished the piece ( great price !) I acknowledged the inferior workmanship in 'style'
In fact it is commonly speculated by "numismatists" that the issue type may have come from a traveling mint operating within the province itself
Having concentrated my personal collection on AE's I wondered aloud why these "inferior" types seemed limited to the copper As denomination while the glorious sestertius (and Dupondius) issued seemingly from Rome alone ?
Brittania as we know for certain was the Roman source for tin
(Cyprus was famous for copper !)
But why would the local being sourced for the tin to make bronze (80% copper about 20% tin with trace amounts of lead and
nickel)
not issue in bronze or the beautiful Roman 'orichalcum' ?
Having experimented with copper and bronze the answer to me seemed simple
Copper is rather malleable
Bronze and/or brassy orichalcum most definitely is not !
Possibly would have not issued due to the difficulties involved ?
They were reasonably close to the source of the tin used to produce a very strategic alloy
So why not use it ? Instead they imported copper ?
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 Posted 03/19/2026  06:51 am  Show Profile   Check MetDet71's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add MetDet71 to your friends list

Quote:
"Moe Larry & Curly"




Some very interesting input on this. I have been doing a lot of searching on the web but not managed to find anything regarding a drop hammer or such. On the heating of coins side though, there is quite a lot of information available from Universities and science reports. Here is a snippet from a science report that supports coins being heated.

[Historic coins are an artifact used for analysis in different research areas. This study contributes to the topic of historic coin minting. Consulting ideas from the field of experimental numismatics, an approach is proposed to evaluate minting of certain coins supported by real test samples. Therefore, a test setup is implemented for the manufacturing of coins under controlled process conditions. In this work, the main focus lies on the coin blank temperature used for striking and thus, to contribute to the controversial problem, if minting is done "cold", "warm" or "hot". In order to prevent confusion, a suitable definition of the terms "cold", "warm" or "hot" with respect to the materials recrystallization temperature is given. Various test samples of copper-based material are manufactured for different process conditions and initial coin blank temperatures, ranging from ambient temperature to 900 °C. Roman coins values, Dupondii and late Roman AE coins, are conducted for a comparative analysis. All coins are evaluated and compared based on metallographic micro-sections. On the basis of the conducted test, strong indications are found for a "hot" striking process.]
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