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ANACS--undergrading Coins

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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It used to be every date and mint mark of set had individual value based on mintage and availability. Nowadays coin history has been somewhat cheapened b/c an entire set is perceived as a few desirable keys and the rest of the set is perceived as common junk.


That's largely because of the fact that the TPGs and more specifically the internet has shown how available many of those dates are. They still do have value, but the truth is that before the internet and TPGs MANY of those things were over hyped as being rare by dealers when they aren't at all.

The internet has also opened peoples eyes to everything that is out there and not left people at the mercy of their local shop which has lead to the rising popularity of type collecting or buying what you want instead of doing full sets.

Quality gets rewarded no matter what date it is in todays market, but the super common stuff did go through a correction period as the internet market turned into the force it is now
Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.That's largely because of the fact that the TPGs and more specifically the internet has shown how available many of those dates are. They still do have value, but the truth is that before the internet and TPGs MANY of those things were over hyped as being rare by dealers when they aren't at all.


Though I do agree with a lot of what Earl42 has said, I have to say that I agree with this so much.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6168 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's largely because of the fact that the TPGs and more specifically the internet has shown how available many of those dates are.


I definitely agree with you on this point. The internet has shown how available things are and I do think it the primary force for having let people see what was once thought rare is not necessarily rare.

However, availability was not necessarily part of the mindset I mention. We all knew if you wanted a coin, it could be had by going through the may adverts in the coin magazines. They were all available - just not as quickly and easily as today for sure.

As an example, in the coin shop I used to work at as a teen, we had (for example) a tray of Mercury dimes by date. Each slot in the tray had a small stack by date and MM of the same coin for most years. As the RedBook (and we knew it was overpriced - everyone did) showed, some were fewer in number than the others, so prices could vary - but not necessarily by much. It was always more special to have an S-mint coin b/c they were rightly perceived (for most dates) as not being as common as others. Available...sure, but not as common since not as many were made.

Recently I got to review an older collection from a friend's father (Easy coast all his life) who was looking to sell. The mindset I speak of seemed to be reflected in what he had put away. The War Nickel extras, Walkers, Franklins, Roosevelts, Lincolns, etc, were primarily S mint marks. When the silver rush of the 80s came, he likely sold some silver, but the hobby just "knew" to save S MMs b/c there were never as many of them as everything else.

And although theses older S MMs are more readily available than ever before b.c of the internet, these little pieces of history will always be lesser in number. I hate seeing them equated with the much more numerable (let's say) Philly coins of the same year. It seems to erase the fact that when all of these were in circulation, it was so much more difficult to find those elusive little gems from San Francisco. It was so much more exciting to turn a coin over and actually find an S!
I also remember this as being one of the lures which interested my friends and I into enjoying the hunt for coins.

I think had slabs, which naturally showcase coins, make them look nice, and draw attention to themselves, had never existed, that the excitement over each coin would still have been retained. Again, you see it in the eyes/posts of people who find that oddball Mercury dime in change nowadays... before they become aware of the market as it exists nowadays.

But... time moves on and sometimes is unintentionally cruel to smaller facts of history.

Quote:
but the truth is that before the internet and TPGs MANY of those things were over hyped as being rare by dealers when they aren't at all.

I personally do not recall this. Of course I remember looking in a magazine and seeing Littleton adverts which did this very thing, but again, we knew it. As said, we also knew the RedBook was too high in prices. Now we did have one "bad" dealer in the area I lived. We all knew this guy (sideline of coins in an antique store anyway) and also and kept away from him! Another we knew to be pricey when selling and cheap when buying. So again, his shop was avoided. There was enough info about markets through magazines to keep up on things - or at least where I was. I don't have purchases I regret from those days. But it could have been different in other areas I suppose.


Quote:
The internet has also opened peoples eyes to everything that is out there and not left people at the mercy of their local shop which has lead to the rising popularity of type collecting or buying what you want instead of doing full sets.


Also an unforeseen result, and definitely a positive one as it has opened up new collecting schemes. Although I had not officially started one, I had always been intrigued with what I now know to call a type set. Its much more doable b/c of the Internet's making many choices for the same coin visible on my screen rather than just a line of print in a magazine!

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2018  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. They were all available - just not as quickly and easily as today for sure.


Which added perceived value. If you have to send off for it and wait and wait to see what it is there is an added perceived value and wonder of where the coin came from. On the flip side when you get order on the internet 10k of something any time you want the opposite is true.


Quote:
When the silver rush of the 80s came, he likely sold some silver, but the hobby just "knew" to save S MMs b/c there were never as many of them as everything else.


But that's part of the more informed hobby today that impacts pricing. This is a good example where back then it was known to save those, but now today look at the S VDB everyone saved it. So many of these old school legends aren't rare at all and other mint marks of that year we now know are harder to find from survival rates.

Don't get me wrong I like the branch mints better myself, but it is a very good example of how it could be manipulated before the internet.


Quote:
I think had slabs, which naturally showcase coins, make them look nice, and draw attention to themselves, had never existed, that the excitement over each coin would still have been retained.


They haven't ruined excitement for people aside from some old school types that refuse to except them. You're conflicting honest excitement over excitement from people that think they are about to make money.

Forums are far more negative about coins amd collecting to be honest. So many just want to bash things or prove a TPG wrong ect. In cases like this you're trying to blame grading (which has been a buyers best friend) for the behavior of the new technology driven market.


Quote:
Although I had not officially started one, I had always been intrigued with what I now know to call a type set. Its much more doable b/c of the Internet's making many choices for the same coin visible on my screen rather than just a line of print in a magazine!


Which is the same with the popularity of world coins and moderns ect. I tried the set thing got bored and moved on. I fully get why people want a more expansive collection of various things now
Pillar of the Community
United States
6168 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2018  1:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
n cases like this you're trying to blame grading

Oh no...I did not want to blame grading as if the devaluation of each and every coin by date and MM was intentional. There is no way every ramification of implementing a new idea can be forseen.


Quote:
Don't get me wrong I like the branch mints better myself,

This concept is really what I was trying to focus on. You are correct in that, for example, a 1945-S dime is not at all difficult to find/acquire. But the very concept of "junk silver" overlooking the much fewer numbers than a 1945-P just somehow seems to cheapen their historic value since they are lumped together with the much more common P mint of this date.

But again...times change.


Quote:
I tried the set thing got bored and moved on.

I admit I also don't collect a coin from each year/denomination/mint anymore except for halves. But some of my reasoning is that things like the endless new designs of quarters just don't appeal to me, the Zincolns deteriorate too easily, and I have to use glasses anymore to see dates on dimes


Quote:
But that's part of the more informed hobby today that impacts pricing.

Agreed also. In this area the hobby has become more aware of availability vs something being "rare" just b/c its old.

Another tend I have enjoyed seeing as we become more educated is the many hidden varieties no one knew of before. Had I knew of things like the 1946 Walking Liberty DDR - as dramatic as the doubling is - back when I was younger, I sure would have had one a long time ago. The internet also has really helped in this area.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2018  12:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But the very concept of "junk silver" overlooking the much fewer numbers than a 1945-P just somehow seems to cheapen their historic value since they are lumped together with the much more common P mint of this date.


I view historic and market value much differently. Something can be historic and not have a ton of market value type thing. Junk silver is a pricing term to me, doesn't mean there isn't a historic value that an owner can appreciate.


Quote:
But some of my reasoning is that things like the endless new designs of quarters just don't appeal to me,


I like the new designs expect for the fact that so many have been basically carbon copies. I like the idea much more than the execution. I do really like variety though so I have a bit of bias in that sense.


Quote:
Agreed also. In this area the hobby has become more aware of availability vs something being "rare" just b/c its old.

Another tend I have enjoyed seeing as we become more educated is the many hidden varieties no one knew of before.


It is nice to see the greater study of issues with the expanding information where people can enjoy greater varieties than ever before.

To expand on your point one of the things I have always tried to defend is that we all have different tastes and get excited by different things and that is perfectly okay and how it should be.

I do try and give some market info on things, but at the end of the day as long as people know what they're doing that's all that matters.
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 08/30/2018  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jazzbo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all who looked at my pictures and responded about my initial question AND the topic of this post "ANACS undergrading coins". Some clarification of a few things, first nothing has been modified or adjusted to enhance or improve pictures and I can post many more.

Second, I would be foolish to crack out a GSA Carson City Morgan to send to NGC or PCGS for grading. If you read my initial post it was that in my opinion this coin has been undergraded by ANACS, the topic of the forum. This coin was graded this year. Now, there also is quite a bit of information on the internet about ANACS being to liberal with grading in the past and now they have tightened up to more conservative grading. Part of the reason I choose to join the discussion. It should be noted that ANACS numbers of grading GSA Morgan is dismal in comparison to NGC and PCGS and the range can be from a minimum of MS60-67 for GSA slabbed Morgans graded by NGC and PCGS.

Third, I have looked at a lot of NGC and PCGS GSA slabbed Carson City Morgans and stand by my assertion, there are many, many others that look worse graded a MS63 or MS64 by NGC and PCGS than the MS62 given by ANACS on this coin. Remember the range is MS60-67, I seriously doubt NGC and PCGS have overgraded based on the thousands of GSA they have graded. Sooooo based on the information I have and what I have seen from the other graders I think at some point I will remove the ANACS label and send as a raw GSA to NGC or PCGS. Higher grade = higher resale value especially with one of the two top coin grading companies.....
Valued Member
United States
84 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2018  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add slapsshot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd just like to say I joined to learn more and although there are differing opinions, there is a lot of valuable info being bandied about, both ways

Thanks
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16242 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2018  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Third, I have looked at a lot of NGC and PCGS GSA slabbed Carson City Morgans and stand by my assertion, there are many, many others that look worse graded a MS63 or MS64 by NGC and PCGS than the MS62 given by ANACS on this coin.

Everything is relative. You say you see a lot of 63 and 64 NGC and PCGS coins that look worse than you ANACS 62. But is that becuse the ANACS coin is undergraded? Or because the PCGS and NGC coins are overgraded? Who knows, and opins always seem to be determined by what the seller can get for the coin.
Gary Schmidt
Pillar of the Community
United States
5143 Posts
 Posted 01/06/2019  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jazzbo, I've experienced that "itch" when a graded coin in my collection looks undergraded. The only way to scratch that itch is to risk the money and send it in, either raw (by removing the ANACS label from your GSA Morgan) or as crossover, with first grade label intact. It's unlikely your GSA would grade less than MS-62 so I'd take the ANACS label off.

If you did scratch that itch, please report the result!
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2019  09:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cash is king to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coin grading is subjective. ANACS, NGC & PCGS grade coins based on the 70-point Sheldon scale. The ability to grade coins is a valuable skill that is transferable between the three top grading services. I find it hard to believe that an employee of any of these grading services would take well to a supervisor telling them to over grade or under grade any coin. Surely it would only take one disgruntled employee to make this "bad act" public and ruin the grading services reputation. ANACS does not grade modern issue coins PL or DPL like NGC and PCGS do. I think ANACS is considered the third service because they do not market themselves to dealers or the public as aggressively as NGC or PCGS.
Moderator
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United States
82429 Posts
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16242 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2019  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Coin grading is subjective. ANACS, NGC & PCGS grade coins based on the 70-point Sheldon scale.

Amd each of them grade to that scale by their own standards.
Gary Schmidt
Pillar of the Community
United States
7189 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2019  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Check edweather's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of course, it's always my coins that are undergraded and everyone elses coins are overgraded
Valued Member
United States
336 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2020  8:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is one that is graded by PCGS as a 63. It is begging to be crossed over to ANACS so they can overgrade it, right, you ANACS-always-over-grades folks? I swear I did not mess with the image other than to crop it so it would fit here. I just got back a medal from ANACS that was graded as a PF 63. It should have been graded at LEAST a 64.

I plan to cross it over to PCGS once I saw this image, heck, they will problably grade my 63 as a 70+! And toss in a CAC sticker to boot!

Seriously, I personally feel that ANACS currently under-grades so they cannot be accused of over-grading. I know this is a hot-button topic, but come on folks. Does this penny really look like a 63 to you? It looks like a couple of old soda-pop pull tabs that got stomped on together to me.


Edited by 4504
01/01/2020 8:35 pm
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