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A quick quiz - Is this 1805 Mo TH 8 Reales Genuine and why?

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4620 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  12:46 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Tonight I saw the following coin on a European auction site.

I am positive I know what it is and about when it was made..

Do you have an opinion and why? There are four major clues visible in the picture below. Can you spot all 4?


My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7848 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  02:00 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll jump. I know next to nothing about these.

The font in the date looks wrong, especially the upper curl of the 0. The o in the mintmark is off-center. There is weakness on the upper portions of the letters "CAROL" while the denticles are very strong.

I really don't know because of variations between dies. It's a start!

"Baseball gets you out in the fresh air and keeps you from talking about your neighbors."
-Lib Dooley

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Pillar of the Community
United States
4620 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  03:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
spruett001 The mint mark is incorrect. As you noted the superscript o is not centered over the M. The original matrix block included a single character M with the superscript in place, this therefore is either a case of a repunching of just the superscript or the character was made with two punches. The first is a possibility I have never actually seen but the second is a clear indication of forgery.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7848 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  03:45 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, I may have caught on to one point. I do know what the Mexico City MM looks like and it caught my attention as an unusually sloppy punch.



"Baseball gets you out in the fresh air and keeps you from talking about your neighbors."
-Lib Dooley

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Pillar of the Community
Australia
562 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  04:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Squire Wilson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I will have a go.

Looking at the bottom of the obverse of the 1805 Reale there appears to be a "raised rim".
From the CCF post of http://goccf.com/t/312155 swamperbob mentions the following:
"The raised rim is never seen on a genuine 8 reales because they were struck in a screw press. The design of the coin is close to perfect because it was copied from a genuine coin."
There is a nice example of how this is created in the above post.

I hope that I have interpreted this correctly ...

Squire
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  10:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xlrcable to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have no business even trying but - are the castles too perfectly formed?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4620 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Squire Wilson Yes, the dentil row is incorrect and ends before the edge. The best example of at least three is under the date.



I made the images of the problems before I wrote this post.

So two down two (or three) to go. You will need to go the "extra mile" to see the 5th issue.

xlrcable Sorry but the castles while slightly different than is typically seen are not on my list. The reason is because the super-tiny differences are really unfair to the average viewer. I could say the same about the majority of features. The 5 total points are VERY INCORRECT. Spectacular errors even.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
562 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  04:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Squire Wilson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the nice feedback swamperbob

Something else that struck me as odd when comparing this Spanish Dollar to my own . The location of the crown in relation to other parts of the design on the reverse of the coin.
To explain this better I have attached a comparison between a coin pronounced genuine by swamperbob in the post http://goccf.com/t/142623&SearchTer...anish,dollar at the top.
My Spanish dollar - a possible English restrike from 1830 to 1850 - in the centre.
The coin under discussion in this post down the bottom.

In the last case the crown is detached from the crest. In the genuine coin and also in my example the crown is joined to the crest.

Squire

Edited by Squire Wilson
03/14/2018 04:32 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
757 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  05:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The crown does appear to be too high and this is the first time I see the top left lily in the fleur-de-lis leaning backwards vs forwards in an 1805. There's also something about the amount or distribution of "wear" on the obverse that makes me uncomfortable.

Having said all that...

I would still not condemn this coin based on images alone.

Also, Bob, I remember seeing the off-center mintmark superscript before. Let me see if I can dig something up from my archives.
Edited by TwoKopeiki
03/14/2018 08:21 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
562 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  07:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Squire Wilson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...something else I have noticed when comparing my Spanish Dollar with the 1805 example in this forum topic. The position of the dot after “ REX” on the reverse differs. Note it’s location in relation to the base of the “pillar”
I have attached my example for comparison
The position of this dot in relation to the base of the pillar on my coin is the same as that on the coin pronounced genuine by swamperbob

Squire

Edited by Squire Wilson
03/14/2018 07:06 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
757 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Squire - there were quite a few dies used in 1805. Position of the legend elements is one of the primary diagnostics and doesn't necessarily point to a counterfeit.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
757 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an 1803-FT in PCGS plastic also exhibiting the mintmark anomaly:


Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1191 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Two types of letter "A" script seen.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
757 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wonghinghi - are you referring to the wavy base vs flat base letters "A"? Calbeto documented these as two different types ("letras ondulada"), but I believe this effect is due to the metal flow during the strike vs actually a different punch used.

Would love to hear other's opinion, as well.
Valued Member
Romania
68 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No expertize in this, but I do not like the straight upper hair ribbon.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
562 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Squire Wilson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the feedback TwoKoepeiki

Do you think that the displaced crown in the 1805 example shown in this topic is also due to die variation?

Squire
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