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Let's Define Another Loosely Used Term Around Here - Dipping

 
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 Posted 03/26/2018  12:39 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
We all hear it everyday. The coin has been dipped. Yet no one specifies what the coin has been dipped in.

Acetone seems to be accepted because it only removes organic matter and doesn't cause hairlines unless wiped with a tissue or cloth.

So can we identify which chemicals cause damage via dipping that is unacceptable? It would be helpful in future if posters would identify which dipping chemical caused their cleaned/dipped assessment. Otherwise, it just confuses everyone on which dipping mechanisms are acceptable and which are not.

Looking forward to clarification on this.

Edited by MikeF
03/26/2018 12:50 am
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 Posted 03/26/2018  12:49 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These are from the CCF Glossary:


Quote:
dipped
A term applied to a coin that has been placed in a commercial "dip" solution, a mild acid wash that removes the toning from most coins. Some dip solutions employ other chemicals, such as bases, to accomplish a similar result. The first few layers of metal are removed with every dip, so coins repeatedly dipped will lose luster, hence the term "overdipped".



Quote:
dipping solution
Any of the commercial "dips" available on the market, usually acid-based.


Time needs to be addressed, as well as the specific solution. Time may actually be more important.

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 Posted 03/26/2018  01:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the response spruett. I agree with the time variable. But I would like to know which chemicals the coin doctors use that cause the damage. There are many different types of acid. I suspect most members of this forum are confused by the general term 'dipped' as I am. I also suspect most are afraid of asking the question for fear of looking like a moron.



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 Posted 03/26/2018  01:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't consider acetone to be a dipping agent, since it has no affect on the metal surface. I think dipping generally refers to thiourea compounds that can remove silver sulfide from the surface without mechanical cleaning. Whether that leaves a coin market acceptable or not depends on the specific coin and the technique (strength of solution, duration of dip, etc). I don't think you can generalize and say that any one solution is acceptable or not.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  01:28 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think dipping generally refers to thiourea compounds that can remove silver sulfide from the surface without mechanical cleaning.


That's it! I couldn't remember thiourea. Here's an interesting article concerning "dips":

https://www.coinworld.com/news/prec...ded.all.html
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
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"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
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"Language is the source of misunderstandings."
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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 Posted 03/26/2018  02:18 am  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I bought some E Z EST just because I've heard so much about it here. I wasn't that successful with it but I've only tried once so far. I would only use it on silver.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  02:47 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dipping using EZEST and similar chemicals only works reliably well if 1) there is luster intact and 2) you are dipping high content silver (don't try it on copper, or on billon / other low fineness alloys.)

It literally removes the surface of the coin at a microscopic level; the longer you dip it, the more is removed. It cannot fix damage to the surface other than tarnish and toning (e.g. pitting, corrosion, etc.) Using it straight-up (undiluted) for more than a couple of seconds per coin, and not using acetone or distilled water to rinse the coin before and immediately after, can result in overdipped, ugly coins with spots and stripped luster.

To me: acetone, Blue Ribbon, Verdi-Care and CONSERV are "good" dips when used properly as they are solvents and/or surface protectants. At the other end, products like EZEST (Jeweluster) and MS70 are the usual suspects when we speak of a coin as being dipped in a negative way.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  04:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Dip", when used as a noun, and "dipping" with no qualifying statement (such as in the the phrase "a quick dip in acetone") can be assumed to mean the acidic, tarnish-removing solutions.

Standard "coin dips" are a mixture of diluted sulfuric acid (also known as "battery acid") and thiourea.

These "dips" are always negative. A coin is rarely improved by using such solutions, and is always "damaged" in the sense that a thin later of metal is removed from the coin. Anthony Swiatek scientifically proved way back in the 1980s that the microscopic lines that cause lustre on coins are attacked and destroyed after just 15 seconds in dip.

I personally avoid using the word "dip" in connotation with any other chemical (such as the above phrase, "dip in acetone"), because of the negative connotations of the word.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  05:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe we need to use the word "stripped" for acid based liquids and the word "dipped" for non acid liquids? I have used EZest in the past with good results on copper and silver and gold.Many years later the coins still look great.I do dilute it with distilled water,about 10%.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just saying dipped is way to vague. Could mean anything depending who is saying it. Could be a dip in water or a dip in Aqua Regia. Just saying dipped means very little. Sort of like saying car instead of Ford or Chevy.
just carl
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 Posted 03/26/2018  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As usual, carl hit the nail on the head. I've been pacing around for an hour thinking about acid/base re-dox reactions, inorganic vs. organic,, metals and p-chem. We're not going to get this all worked out on a Monday morning so I'd just to add a couple of points.

Whatever the "dipping agent" is, it's a solvent. They can be the more familiar acidic solvents like EZest or they can be bases, as well. The point is that solvents in common parlance dissolve things. In our case, things either on the surface of coins (verdigris = oxides of copper) or the surface of the coins themselves.

Second point is that opinions on "dipping" change. What is unacceptable to collectors this year may have been just fine in days gone by. If you're an ANA member, go look at some old issues of Numismatist or some of the early coin magazines of the 1960's. You'll find that dipping in all sort of solvents (advertised) was great. If you overdipped, people would be happy to sell you "browning solutions".

Point one is chemistry, point two is more aesthetic and my opinion.


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 Posted 03/26/2018  2:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Webster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have nothing to add, I just want to thank MikeF for asking this question. I have been confused about the exact meaning and connotation of "dipped" ever since I joined this forum and I understand it much better now because of this thread.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
EZest is a mixture of sulfuric acid and thiourea. It is a clear light blue solution. If a silver coin is over dipped, you can see specs of silver in the solution. The solution can be diluted with distilled water, so it is not as harsh on the coin. After the dip of 5 seconds and max of 15 seconds the coin needs to be rinsed in water and some people also rinse with acetone. I have had better luck with black toning doing multipul dips of a couple seconds and pat dry.
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 Posted 03/26/2018  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now this has been helpful! I agree with carl and John1 that maybe we should call it stripped when acid is used. What made the subject more aggravating is that there are a couple of folks in the grading section who use the term often that I suspect have no clue what it means. They just throw the term out there because they see other folks use it. No one learns anything in those cases.

Edited by MikeF
03/26/2018 10:45 pm
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 Posted 03/27/2018  09:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Acetone seems to be accepted because it only removes organic matter and doesn't cause hairlines unless wiped with a tissue or cloth.

So can we identify which chemicals cause damage via dipping that is unacceptable? It would be helpful in future if posters would identify which dipping chemical caused their cleaned/dipped assessment. Otherwise, it just confuses everyone on which dipping mechanisms are acceptable and which are not.

This is where I am getting confused when you say using acetone is acceptable. If you use acetone and it removes organic material isn't that cleaning? and isn't cleaning bad?
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 Posted 03/27/2018  10:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This is where I am getting confused when you say using acetone is acceptable. If you use acetone and it removes organic material isn't that cleaning? and isn't cleaning bad?
Acetone removes organic material which is not part of the original coin, while dips alter the surface of the coin by removing part of the original coin material.
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