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Cap & Rays And Central States

 
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Pillar of the Community

United States
922 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2019  2:20 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I enjoyed talking with USMEX members about counterfeit Mexican 8 Reales at Mike Dunigan's table in Schaumburg, Illinois. I bought his Resplandores book. One dealer had a dozen of such coins for sale and I bought the half that were better than others. I was pleased to also buy a counterfeit plus a genuine Balance Scale 50 Centavos.

Here is a group photo of the other side (not quite as good as individuals would be. I was pleased to buy a second 1842 Zs OM. It does not seem to have that cactus needle through the leaf like the other coin having the same date and mint.
Edited by Albert
04/28/2019 12:55 am
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United States
966 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2019  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you are now headed in the right direction. The recommended progression in collecting a series is to buy the book(s), then collect some genuine pieces, then collect some varieties and then, using your accumulated knowledge of the series, collect some counterfeits.
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2019  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ChipDehart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are some nice finds. I would love to see the eagle side.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2019  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
<b>Albert</b> Nice group of Cap and Rays you picked up.

I presume from what you wrote that they were all sold as counterfeit?

I am very familiar with all 6 coins and I own examples of all of them.

You commented that the 1842 Zs OM does not have the cactus spine through the laurel leaf. That is of course correct because this is a second die pair. For 1842 Zs OM I am aware of over a dozen different varieties. Several of these CCC's are extremely common to common while the other range in scarcity up to unique. Here are a few 1842 Zs OM varieties that I could readily locate.

The first is the same die pair as yours, a coin I refer to as Many Pads or Reversed superscripts. It is a common variety which is not listed in Riddell. It is a crudely engraved die pair and clearly a CCC type.



The second is the Pierced Leaf variety you referred to. It is also a common to very common coin that is not listed in Riddell. This coin die was well made, uses a less crude style and could pass as genuine.



The third variety is the Riddell number 274. This variety is an example of a CCC that has severl related pairs. I am still searching for other members of this family. This family proves that some dies were made using actual punch sets so that similar dies could be prepared. The first picture is of an exact match for the # 274 which I refer to as the Two Toe variety. This is the type that Riddell illustrated.



There is another die pair using many of the same punches which I refer to as the Three Toe version because of the way the foot of the eagle appears to have three toes.



This is a third variety related to the # 274 except that it uses an obverse die dated 1836 Zs OM. In this case the reverse is the 274 Two Toe variety with some aging.



The 1834 Zs OM is an example of the Riddell # 237 which I call the "Chicken Eagle". There is also a version that uses an obverse dated 1842 Zs OM. Both of these are common and easily located (except for silver varieties which are quite rare). There is a second die variety of the 1842 ZS OM in which the eagle die has been re-cut apparently to lengthen its useful life. The recuts include the snake's head and the eagle's right wing which has 3 feathers at the tip.

The 1830 Zs OM is one of the Riddell listed varieties of the # 223 which all use an eagle with a "Broken Toe". The 1830 version is common - the 1832 version is the most common of the redated dies.

The 1834/3 Do RM appears to be genuine. Both dies match the correct hub and the re-cut date is a feature normally associated with genuine 8Rs not counterfeit versions. So next I have to ask why you and/or the seller believed the coin to be counterfeit?

The 1829 Go MJ also appears to match the correct die style for the year. Once again why was it classified as counterfeit?

The 1827 G AO is an example of the Riddell # 406. It is a fantasy mint mark lacking the small o. The reverse is one that I refer to in two ways. There are a number of coins using the elongated beak which resembles an Ibis hence my name "Ibis Eagle". Because the cactus pads are aligned along an arc I refer to the cactus as a "Candelabra type".

This last counterfeit is only somewhat scarce.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2019  12:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Swamperbob so much for your interest and comments. I can reply to your questions this way: I cannot say why some dealers describe some coins as counterfeits. This lot was described as "copies". I can only guess the dealer has not the best knowledge to know. I do have other genuine coins that were described as fakes, but ended up being genuine because the dealers were mistaken. I add them to the books and describe them that same way. Some time ago one coin was an unwanted oddity given to me as a freebie and ended up being better than a Kleeberg and Ringo coin. I am presently working on other purchases from the Central States show and will get to the Cap & Rays coins later. But I can post better photos of the 1829 and 1834 coins if wanted. I can say the 1829 coin does test as strongly diamagnetic and passes the ice test. I will know more after I calculate SG. The 1829 and 1834 coins may very well be genuine when I get around to testing them.
Here are pics of the two coins Swamperbob pointed out:
The 1834 coin is 19.96g



The 1829 coin is 24.44g.

Edited by Albert
04/29/2019 1:31 pm
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United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2019  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert If the weights are correct, both coins (1829 and 1834) are most likely counterfeit. Have you checked to see if they have been mined to remove silver. Do you have edge photos?

In particular the 1834 at under 20 grams is far to light in weight.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2019  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob I rounded off the weights when first posted. The true weights are 19.9640 for the 1834 and 24.4355 for the 1829. Here are edge pics. The 1834 top and 1829 bottom. All six coins in this lot are described as contemporary "copies". I find that some dealers use words like "copy" or "imitation" instead of writing "counterfeit".


I don't understand mining to remove silver. I don't know the process or any telltale indicators to look for.
Edited by Albert
04/30/2019 12:12 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2019  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are the six edges in date order with oldest coin on top.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2019  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert All of the edges look very bad to me.

The 1834 Do edge is wrong for the date as are all the others. But that coin is VERY interesting since it is a copy of a working die made with the original hubs and recut to a later date. It is the first such redated die to prove to be bad.

The only question I have given the weight is extremely low at 19.96 grams - is how was it made? Is there any indication of a layered composition or is the coin apparently solid? Does the coin ring or have magnetic properties. The reason I ask is that there were many Chinese forgeries made using a target weight of 20 grams because the forgers mistook the assay statement as a weight. They believed 20 Gs meant 20 grams and not 20 Grannos. This error led to huge numbers of 8Rs produced in nickel silver that were about 20 grams in weight and many were magnetic.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2019  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is 19.96g and perhaps white or "pot" metal. No ping heard.
No attraction to a magnet. Not dia-magnetic.
No sign of being layered. Appears cast with pits, blobs and porosity.
Seriously doubt if nickel silver. I can provide SG tomorrow if asked for.
Here are pics of this piece:
Oh, and by the way, your book arrived recently so I have been enjoying reading it. It did not come with the companion discs, but I already had those.



Edited by Albert
05/15/2019 11:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would definitely like to know the density in this case.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2019  03:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1827 G AO is 8.678
1829 Go MJ is 10.01
1830 Zs OM is 9.265
1834 Zs OM is 10.00
1834/3 Do RM 7.1876
1842 Zs OM is 8.665

I presume the theoretical or ideal to be 10.319 if .903 silver and .097 copper.
Edited by Albert
05/16/2019 8:12 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  02:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A density of 7.19 is difficult to achieve using typical metals found in counterfeits because it is too low in density to copy silver successfully. The 7.19 density is below both brass and bronze. It is even below pure tin (7.3). Chromium is a 7.1 type metal but it is unheard of in period counterfeiting.

Zinc (spelter or flue metal) is a better candidate here and it was a waste byproduct of silver and lead production furnaces. It was used in the UK and Europe for counterfeiting and could point to the origin if it proved to be spelter.

A roughly 50-50 alloy of lead and antimony could replicate the number and that alloy was used in the UK for counterfeits early on. It is a good alloy for casting as well. It will not ring.

I still have a few reservations on age, but if this could be proven to be contemporary, it would be the first of the over dated French dies to be copied for counterfeiting. A very interesting coin to be sure.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
922 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are there any particular places on the coin where close-ups may be useful?
I imagine an XRF scan would be most helpful, but I have not settled on a provider where I can mail some coins and get results back.

Here are some letters:

Edited by Albert
05/17/2019 6:28 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2019  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob... those are rather nice surfaces for that low a weight/density, true?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4847 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2019  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher You make an interesting statement.


Quote:
Bob... those are rather nice surfaces for that low a weight/density, true?


Yes the surfaces do look rather nice, there are realistic lines that resemble flow lines seen on dies, die cracks etc., however, in the blow up picture of the letter R in REPUBLICA did you note the round (almost spherical) blobs on the surface? Those look like features seen on some counterfeits and forgeries copied using electrotyping. An electro-type copy does a great job of recreating the surface texture with the exception of the round balls that simply should not be there. How they occur is, as of this time, unknown to me. I have seen them on a recently produced forgery of the rare 1847 UK Gothic Crown and on a series of recently made late date US Half Cents. I have also observed them on French counterfeits of the 5 Franc from the middle 1850s.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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