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1964 P Kennedy Half, Retooled Ah Obverse Die?

 
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 Posted 10/15/2019  4:55 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This is going to be a pretty long post as I am sure I will get a lot of answers. Before you answer please read the whole post. The AH variety was minted only for the proofs and not the business strikes and there are certain die markers that distinguish it from the Business strike. One being the missing lower left serif on the letter I in LIBERTY and the second being the hair above the ear. You can pretty much tell pretty quickly between the AH Proof and the business strike by looking at these two hallmarks. What if the AH Proof dies were retooled for the business strike? I worked as a machine operator for a few years using all kinds of dies and worked 20 years in a steel mill. I have a basic understanding of metallurgy and know my way around dies. This I know, no matter how hard the steel, it can be manipulated with the right knowledge and of course the right tools. It would be tedious but a lower serif on the bottom of the I could be added as well as softening the hair line. There is one other hallmark that I am about to mention and that is the die grooves at the top left of the ear as well as the grooves about halfway up the right side of the ear that goes all the way to the bottom lobe. They are also found on the back of the neck as well. If the master die and all other working dies were destroyed after minting the proofs then it would be virtually impossible to replicate the exact same grooves in the exact same positioning. I have many 1964 P Kennedy half business struck coins but non quite like this 1964 P Business strike and it also has the RDV-001. The eighth pic is a stock pic of an AH proof. The last pic is where you can pic up where I am talking about the retooling. The lines are more prominent in the hair than on any other 64 Business strike coin I have as well. Food for thought I suppose.









Edited by Jim0815
10/15/2019 5:29 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2019  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've got about a half dozen AH sitting around. Remind me when I get home and I'll compare them.
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 Posted 10/15/2019  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might be right, heck, I got no clue. But that begs the question. Why bother lowering the relief and adding a serif? I could get the relief, maybe, if it was for die life purposes. But a serif wouldn't make a difference. Just asking.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
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 Posted 10/15/2019  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grapes, my only answer is this, they were in such a hurry to get the new half dollars minted they may have cut corners on these dies to keep up with production?
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 Posted 10/15/2019  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't you think, in order to get the lower serif on the "I" ,quite abit of metal must be removed from the field in order to make the field look flat and uniformly level? Also on the hair wouldn't the skull look lop-sided? Just my thought or questioning...

Edided: spelling
Edited by Greasy Fingers
10/15/2019 8:26 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2019  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as the hair you are only talking about smoothing the die about half the thickness of a human hair. You would not have to do anything to the field other than create a very slight triangular cut into the die face creating the serif. Remember, the die face is incused on the die, it is not raised on the die face itself. That theory could only work on working dies, Not on the Master hub.
Edited by Jim0815
10/15/2019 9:43 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2019  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
True to that Jim, I guess my brain is not firing on all cylinders tonight..(many might say most nights)...
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 Posted 10/16/2019  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply





Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
10/16/2019 01:32 am
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 Posted 10/16/2019  05:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, I know what a AH and it's markers look like. That's not what I'm getting at. My point being, this notion in all fairness isn't too far fetched. Take a look at the 44 Lincoln cent. A lot of those were minted with a retooled die. Granted a blind man on a fast horse could spot the difference. Move twenty years ahead of that and technology advances.
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 Posted 10/16/2019  06:13 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wait there was a retooled 1944 LWC die? When did this happen. How am I just hearing for this?
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq...ukyxurAHKuRg
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 10/16/2019  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stoneman227 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1944 example isn't a retooled die.
When the 44 was engraved into the master Hub the resulting job looks like doubling. All 1944 cents will show this to some extent . The die state of the individual working dies and working Hubs will affect the amount of engraving doubling that is seen.

Edit
Should have said Die instead of Hub
Edited by stoneman227
10/16/2019 09:28 am
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 Posted 10/16/2019  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I very well may be wrong here but if I'm not mistaken they called it a retouched die. The nose of the first four on some 1944's show this.
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 Posted 10/16/2019  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Error-Ref.com:
http://www.error-ref.com/?s=1944+cent+

Quote:

The doubling commonly seen on the last two digits of the 1944 Lincoln cent was long thought to be the result of master die doubling. This determination was changed when it became apparent that the last two digits were engraved into the master die of that year, rather than punched-in. The doubling would therefore have to be the result of re-touching the last two digits.

The images above show extra serifs at the bottom of the last two digits ("44") as well as notching at various location. As the master die transfers its design to a succession of working hubs, these faults became less distinct over time. The image above and to the right shows the gradual fading of those errant marks.


Also note this section on the same area:
http://www.error-ref.com/retouching_the_date/
Also on other dies:
http://www.error-ref.com/?s=Retouch...gn+elements+
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
10/16/2019 09:39 am
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 Posted 10/16/2019  09:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stoneman227 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the LCR Glossary
Engraving Doubling Master hubswere usually made without the last 1 or 2 digits of the date on them, so that they could be used over again in subsequent years. This means that the final digit or 2 of the date had to be engraved into the master die after it was made. This engraving of the digits often showed inconsistencies which often resembles doubling of those digits. Just a few of the more noticeable years of this are 1960 small date on the 6, 1965 on the 5, 1973 on the 3, 1940 on the 4, 1941 on the 4, and 1944 on the 44. Photo illustrations of these can be seen Here.
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 Posted 10/18/2019  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I checked PCGS for lmages of the half dollars and noticed that the early die states normally have what you are seeing as wrinkles (to me, they like fingerprints but aren't) they are there. As the dies age, then they go away. So they are normal.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 10/18/2019  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Willburton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop did it again. EDS. Good post!
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