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1977 Canada 1 Cent Struck On Brass Or Bronze?

 
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Canada
3 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  8:20 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add toolmanz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
All,

First time posting to this forum and I hope I picked the right one.

I posted a similar post on another forum and got some good feedback.

I have a 1977 1 cent that appears to be struck on a blank of brass or bronze.

I think a genuine mint error. I suspect a leftover blank from the striking of another countries coins.

This is what I know:
Subject coin is golden in color
No evidence of being dipped or otherwise altered in any way
Obverse has a cloudy copper area in one area (oxidation...)
face is golden in color
1977 Canada 1 cent is copper in color and struck in an alloy:
98% copper, 0.5% tin and 1.5% zinc
RCM struck the 1 cent anniversary of independence (1966-1976)
for the Barbados government in 1976
http://www.coinscan.com/for/foreign.html)
The Barbados 1 cent coin was struck in bronze.
The 2 coins - the 1976 Barbados 1 cent and the 1977 Canada 1
cent are approximately the same size in
diameter.
Both coin relief and raised elements (maple leaf etc.) are very
rough and not smooth as found in the correct 1977 1
cent coin
The strike seems to be relatively crisp and clean

Specifications:
The specifications are from official sources:
Measure Subject Coin 1977 Canada 1 Cent(1) 1976 Barbados 1 Cent(2)
Blank material -unknown -98% copper, 0.5% tin and 1.5% zinc -bronze
Diameter: MM -19.15 -19.08 -18.861
Diameter: in. -0.754 -0.751 -0.715
thickness: mm -1.57 -1.5 -1.565
weight: grams -3.2 -3.1 -3.11

Notes: These measurements for the subject coin were taken using reasonably accurate tools. At best these measurements are approximate.
(1) Statistics from https://www.coinsandcanada.com/coins-pr ... 977&years=
(2) Statistics from https://currencies.fandom.com/wiki/Barb ... _cent_coin

That is what I have ..... the alignment does not work in the post preview...hopefully you can extract the info. Table is 3 x 5 and data points separated by -

The edge is smooth and the rim seems to be doubled?
The only thing I can think of as a possible explanation is:

Hypothesis:
In late 1976 or early 1977 the RCM stopped producing the 1976 Barbados 1 cent coin and began striking 1977 1 cent coins. A blank from the 1976 Barbados 1 cent coin, in bronze, was struck with the RCM 1977 1 cent dies and distributed for circulation.

I welcome your comments and alternative explanations or anything that might help identify the coin material..

I suspect I will have to submit this to a grading service to find out if it is legit.

Pictures added.

Thanks in advance





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Canada
7983 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  8:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All 1977 Canadian cents are bronze.
98% copper, 0.5% tin and 1.5% zinc = bronze
The Barbadian coin is almost certainly the same composition.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
01/15/2020 8:44 pm
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Canada
1582 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Smallcentguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have not double checked the RCM info on foreign strikings. But the easy answer is to weigh it, test for magnetism and then do an XRF scan.
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Canada
7983 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Have you looked at a Barbadian 1 cent coin of that era?
It has the same colour as a regular Canadian cent.
Not at all like your subject coin.
If a Canadian cent were struck on a Barbados planchet you would not be able to see the difference.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
01/15/2020 9:17 pm
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Canada
901 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnnysprawl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's going to be really hard to tell, seeing as the diameters are almost identical and the weight difference is only 0.14 g...

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Canada
7983 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  03:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't believe anyone could ever determine if a Canadian cent was struck on a Barbados planchet.
The weight and diameter are within the tolerance for a Canadian planchet.
No one knows the exact composition of the Barbados cent other than it is bronze.
No grading company nor XRF test could prove your coin was struck on a Barbadian planchet.
At best all that could be determined would be if your coin is an anomalous alloy not to Canadian specs.

Personally I think your coin is painted, plated ,or otherwise coated.High points on the reverse and the obverse rim appear to be where the coating has worn through.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Canada
9138 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  08:46 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't believe anyone could ever determine if a Canadian cent was struck on a Barbados planchet.
The weight and diameter are within the tolerance for a Canadian planchet.


"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
3 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add toolmanz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All good comments. I should approach this with some skepticism.

The only question I have is why is the surface so irregular and rough?

Well maybe I'll take a flyer and get it graded and perhaps they will do an xrf test while they are at it. That way I'll know for sure - perhaps#128580;

If it was dipped or coated.... why?
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Canada
4537 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even at best it's a Barbado's planchet, the condition of coin worth maybe a 100 bucks if you can find a buyer, this coin looks messed with
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Canada
784 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oldmike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are lots of Canadian circulated coins that have a rough surface ,looks like a well circulated coin , getting it graded would be a waste of money IMHO
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Canada
590 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  2:42 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can honestly say after just recently going through about $100 worth of 1977's that this is normal, you should see the colours these pennies can turn into, if the gold colour is intriguing to you, you should see the colours I've found, I got ones that look pink, gold, brown, some with blue hues, some with blue and green hues, BU uncirculated you name it. I even have some that literally look dipped in gold but they all come back with same weight and same size. I agree with the rest, getting it graded is not worth it at all and given the condition it is in finding an interested buyer willing to pay more than $50 is unlikely. Considering even if this were a barbados planchet like previously said theres no tests that could confirm it which means it would be hard to prove to an interested person other than your word.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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Canada
9138 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  3:04 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
toolmanz - I collect Canadian 1-cent in off-metal strikes. And, I own an XRF in my lab at work. Trust me, the folks here on this forum have your best interest in mind, when they offer advice.

Even if your coin was mint state, the composition of the Barbados and Canadian 1-cent coins are identical (bronze). The mint tolerances of size, weight and thickness for both countries are the same. You could not tell them apart (a win-win scenario for the Royal Canadian Mint production plant).

If you submit it to CCCS (the only Canadian company that certifies errors) they won't be able to determine its composition for you. If you submit it to PCGS or NGC, as an error coin, it will cost you upwards of CAN$90 to do so.

There are lots of reasons why circulated coins can turn golden brass or even funky colours - do a search on the coin forum for tons of examples. The only Canadian 1c struck on any Barbados coin I have, are these two:

https://www.icollector.com/1979-One...et_i34366909

https://www.icollector.com/1980-One...et_i34366911

You can find Canadian dimes struck on Barbados 10c planchets, as they are Cu-Ni and not magnetic. http://goccf.com/t/294146

And then, this Canadian 5c was definitely struck on a Barbados 1c. http://goccf.com/t/76634&whichpage=13#1403888


"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
3 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2020  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add toolmanz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All,

Thanks for all the great information.

I have decided to pass on getting this graded for the time being it doesn't sound like this is a true error.

Thanks

Tim
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