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Counterfeit Mexico 1841 8 Reales ?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 983Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2020  10:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hey guys, this inquiry is specifically for swamperbob... So, I have an 1841 Go PJ 8 Reales that I would like a countefeit expert to look at, as Mexico 8 Reales are not my forte. Oh and if it is needed, I can take better pics in natural light tomorrow afternoon. Thanks in advance!






Edited by MasterKromm
11/03/2020 10:39 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5074 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  12:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MasterKromm Thanks for the vote of confidence. I hope my answer warrants it.

The coin looks Genuine. The design is a precise match for the hubs that were used at the Guanajuato mint from 1830 to 1843.

However, you need to look at these coins for more than just the surface appearance. That is because about 2002 or so a new class of forgeries appeared on the scene. The first I received was an 1838 Go also made from this hubbed series. The coin was owned by a long time dealer in world coins and he was upset with one of the grading companies who returned his MS 63 plus coin as of questionable authenticity.

What I found was that it was actually a modern Numismatic Forgery made using centrifugal casting with the edge design added as the last step. This was of course an absolute condemnation point because the planchet was edged BEFORE it was struck in an open sided press.

In that case, I also noticed that the coin had what I call rotational erosion of the mold. The molds are relatively soft material and the silver injected into the mold causes erosion in the direction of the rotation of the mold which was counterclockwise on both faces.

So I have to be slightly suspicious of this coin because I see a similar but less pronounced counterclockwise rotational erosion.

Of course a loose chuck on the die can result in a similar erosion of steel dies. This is usually seen on older more worn dies.

So I would ask for edge photos taken both square to the edge and at an angle to the corners of the edge. I am looking for definitive proof that the edge was present when the coin faces were struck. I would also like to know the exact weight. The cast copy was slightly overweight.

Beyond that it would take an XRF test looking for gold to be certain. I own several Go coins from this era 1838 to 1842 that have been tested with XRF and gold trace runs as high as 3.8%. That is extremely high and meant that genuine coins of that period could be melted and parted for a profit.

So do I believe it is genuine? I honestly can not tell from what I have seen.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ swamperbob, thanks again for taking the time to respond and provide insight + knowledge that I most certainly lack! I didn't have the best light due to cloudy skies, so I again took a few shots inside. Not my best photo-shooting, but I can definitely attempt better shots later in the evening when I am done with work.

Here are three edge pics of the 1841 8R ->




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 Posted 11/04/2020  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What is going on at the back of the cap?
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 Posted 11/04/2020  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are actually great photographs. Better than I can get and they make me more suspicious about the authenticity of your coin.

The top picture of the edge appears to capture one of the overlaps in the edge design.

What does the edge look like exactly opposite that point?

That is a critical question I have discussed on this forum for 10-15 years now. The edge of these coins was applied in what is called a castang machine in the US and simply an edge mill in Spain. (That is why these were referred to as milled 8Rs.)

The design of that machine was developed in Europe in the 1700's and it added a design to the edge to prevent edge filing or clipping. The loss of edge detail resulted in banks weighing the coins and discounting their face value because of loss of metal.

Below is a sketch I prepared and posted on this forum in 2006. The edge illustrated is a colonial design but the same type of machine was used for the Cap and Ray coins.



If you notice the coin blank is squeezed between two parallel steel bars that have the reversed impression of the edge on both. The gripping of the coin cuts in the edge design and it simultaneously upsets the edge for striking. Because of this simultaneous grip the overlaps MUST be exactly opposite one another and they must be of exactly equal length.

On the first picture I see three impressions one on top of the other. That is very suspicious.

I also believe that the edge uses a slightly irregular pattern. I definitely need to see the edged at a location exactly opposite the first. In addition a picture taken between the overlaps on both sides is usually of help in matching patterns.




My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This first group of three is from the edge opposite the first picture (the last picture is definitely not my finest). I will work on another group, taking pictures at a quarter turn from the right and left of the first picture as well.




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United States
96 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Shots of the the "sides" relative to the first picture.

Side 1






Side 2



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 Posted 11/06/2020  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MasterKromm I think we now have an answer.

The first three pictures - the top two being sections of the bottom picture - show absolutely no trace of an overlap.

Here are the areas side by side, just to confirm that these are the areas 180 degrees apart.




So if these pictures do show areas excactly opposite one another there is no possible conclusion other than the coin is a forgery.

If it is for sale as a forgery please let me know. I would be interested to add it to my collection of Numismatic Forgeries.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  9:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MasterKromm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ swamperbob, my original thought was to sell it on eBay if it was legit and if not keep it. That said, I wouldn't mind selling it to you, though I have no idea what kind of price a forgery commands. I am open to any offer you believe is fair/reasonable since I don't even have a clue how to value a forgery.

Thanks again for all the insight!

Respectfully, James

PS: Do you have an email address that would allow me to message you directly?

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 Posted 11/07/2020  3:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, my contact information:

Telephone (910) 425-1224
Email swamperbob22@aol.com
Snail mail Robert Gurney
Swamperbob Associates
PO Box 435
Hope Mills, NC 28348
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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Austria
562 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2020  08:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@MasterKromm

I would be happy to buy this one as a legit piece at a legit price!

Please send me a message or contact me with your price.

Here is my contact: filip.stankov@gmail.com
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 Posted 11/08/2020  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
coinworldtv The coin has only one overlap so it is NOT genuine. Why would you think it is genuine? The sale or re-sale of this coin as a genuine 1841 Go is Fraud.

I want to get an XRF test just to be 1000% positive - I don't need that because of the single lap - but would you even believe that?

Science is always better than opinion.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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1568 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2020  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, as you know, the overlaps on the Cap & Rays can sometimes be rather hard to distinguish...

A few other 1841-Go pieces with peripheral metal flow issues:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...pj-NGC-ms-62

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...-184131-gopj

https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/wor...ption-071515
(reverse only)

And this 1840:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/wor...ption-071515

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5074 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2020  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher I agree that edge designs can sometimes be difficult to see.

However, here the fact that one overlap is not only clear but also shows at least three layers of lap is just about impossible to explain when contrasted with the very clean view of an uninterrupted edge design exactly opposite.

I readily admit that the erosion does appear on some genuine coins. However, I have seen too many proven forgeries with that trait to let it pass without comment. The most obvious forgeries have well developed curved flow lines which look like swirls.

Once I see the coin I will test it for density - which I presume will be correct. And I will try to get to Raleigh to have it tested with XRF.

These forgeries are dangerous - they likely already have been graded in some cases. I am cautioning vigilance.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/19/2021  01:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Has there been any updates to the status of this coin?

Also is the basic design of the edge accurate? (discounting the overlap issue).

I spent quite a bit of time trying to find a good photograph of a genuine Cap and Rays edge design but I keep ending up with these discussions about counterfeits.
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United States
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 Posted 01/20/2021  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jgenn I have yet to see the coin so I can not give an update.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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