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1864 Indian Head Cent, Mis-Labeled Error? Please Help

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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:10 am Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. Previously posted in US Modern Variety and Error Coins. ***



OK please help me on this coin folks as I must be confused. I will have this coin back in hand later today, I have the error being struck out of collar as well as Grease Filled Dies. PCGS has it a Grease Filled Dies, and before that as a split planchet on its edge. This is the second bite at the apple.

While examining the images you will find the reveres rim shows where the edge of the die sat during striking, "this is seen as a flat edge" This flat edge is only evident from 9:00 O Clock around to 6:00 O clock and is tapered with its widest section being around 2:30.

The obverse of this coin has "No die seat edge" at all and the full top edge is a round over. What cant be seen is the fact that the edge at the point on the reverse where you see a full die edge at 2:30 has a flat collar edge, that's to say the side if the coin is flat from what a collar die would do. Over 60% of the collar or edge of the coin is up turned or rounded.

I have this as a struck out of collar or a some what tilted collar strike. This is to say the press was in an ejection setting where the new planchet was not fully seated and the collar was at an ejection point.

What am I missing ?

BTW this variety in this die state with the wide rim breaks on the viewers lower left and the one that runs off the date also have huge rim CUDs. This coin is missing the rim cuds as the die edge is missing.





Edited by twohawks
03/17/2021 10:22 am
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What is the weight? If light it could show weakness of strike because of a thinned planchet? Thus affecting strike. Did they note the RPD? America is showing the 'Longacre doubling.'
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:30 am  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This coin is a little over nominal and is an AU-58

Here is a shot of the same variety where the die brakes are not as broken as my coin. This later die state has a deep double break that runs up into the U of united and also from the rim to the I in united as well as a cracks that run thought the U into the neck point and off the 4 into the rim. So this coin or my coin should have die edge rim cuds if it was struck in collar.

Yes its a Snow 2 and attributed. This is the 2nd AU 58 in a Snow to graded by PCGS and that AU 58 makes this one look MS 62. I agree with the AU grade BTW 58+ would be the out right correct grade as it has just the faintest circulation rubs. The images of the Cud's are on an MS 63 coin from PCGS coin facts. It looks like their are only 5 MS examples of a Snow 2 graded by PCGS. They have an MS 63 without cuds in coin facts, but that coin the die breaks are really early "or not as large yet"

Edited by twohawks
03/17/2021 10:46 am
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:39 am  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here is a top to bottom the top coin is my coin and the breaks look to be later than the lower coin.


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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That doesn't mean it is not that die, it means your coin was struck before/after the die damage continued to get worse. They are both from the same die. Note the RPD. It is the same. But weight of the planchet might be a bigger issue on your coin? Is there a snow number for that die?
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Heck of a coin, and an "L" to boot.
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:51 am  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Snow 2, and this is a later die state based on the die cracks and their progression. Die breaks don't get smaller as the die wares. Die cracks on the other hand can be polished away to a point where they appear to be earlier when in fact they are a reduced post polished crack. I die break to me is displacement and raised metal.

The fact the collar of this coin is rounded over on its edge on both sides and only 20% of the edge is flat as if a collar die was present, is my key indicator personally
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 Posted 03/17/2021  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you show the area of the edge of the coin where the weakness on the obverse and reverse is? It looks like the metal was thinner on that area, thus the strike is weaker on both sides of the coin. A side view of a normal coin, this coin and another normal coin should show that thinness.

Like this, but with Three Cents. The one in question in the middle with the edge where the weakness on both sides are showing on your coin?
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/17/2021  11:11 am  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When it gets back today I can, but I already used a micrometer and its not a tapered or thin planchet. It is just the slightest out of round with its widest point being around 10:30

Again this coin scales as a little heavy UNC, not light. When you look at the edge of this coin its rounded "not flat" Like no collar die! only one section is flat on its edge and that is right around 3:00 on while looking at the obverse.

Take a few pennies and hold them on their edge. the edges are flat, this coin has rounded edges and the edge of the seat and hammer die edge cant be seen except for that small area on the reverse die.

I understand a thin planchet concept, the issue with that is a thin planchet will and would be a little under weight of nominal, not over weight as this coin is.
Edited by twohawks
03/17/2021 11:12 am
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 Posted 03/17/2021  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did you notice the extra 4 mark in the denticles? It is one both coins. (Below the '4') You can see it a lot better on your coin. (Last image of the SBS comparison)

So it is a RPD (Re-Punched-Date) and a MPD. (Mis-Punched-Date)
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
03/17/2021 11:37 am
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 Posted 03/17/2021  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lawest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Looks like Snow-2b 1864-L, 1864/1864 (s)

OBV Die 6, Stage C (die crack from rim at 7:00 through U to bust point; die crack from base of 4 to the rim at 5:00; die crack extends through the date) paired with RVS Die V, Stage B (die crack connects the right wreath and the shield). Also, according to Rick Snow that is a heavy die scratch in the denticles beneath the 4 of the date.
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 Posted 03/17/2021  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice coin and excellent photos. I think the attribution of Snow-2 is pretty clear. But I'm also curious whether this is an out of collar strike that was missed by PCGS twice. Any other explanation for the appearance of the rims?
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 Posted 03/17/2021  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More food for thought. Might double check the edge for any sign of a wide collar issue. Thanks, Doug.

http://www.error-ref.com/wide-collar/

Quote:
It is just the slightest out of round with its widest point being around 10:30
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 Posted 03/18/2021  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Check twohawks's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its hard to see, but part of the collar of this coin is rounded. Yes what you see in the edge is also cracks or lamination splits in the planchet on its side.

Part of the edge is flat and true, and part is rounded.

I have to run to work so while I can read response's I will not be able to reply.





Edited by twohawks
03/18/2021 12:52 pm
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 Posted 03/18/2021  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the images. It does show the flat edge. Looking at the straight on shots, you would never had guessed, it was normal looking on the edge. Thanks again.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/19/2021  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What a beautiful coin !


Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
Edited by 52Raymo
03/19/2021 5:22 pm
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