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1798 Large Cent Questionable Authenticity

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 Posted 06/07/2021  7:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I bought this 1798 S-168 large cent off of Ebay for a reasonable price. Recently, I had it checked out by two coin dealers in their stores. First dealer didn't take a second glance, because they didn't notice anything suspicious. The second dealer studied it and said he is 90% sure the coin is counterfeit. He recommended that I should play it safe, and ask for a return to get my money back while I still have the chance to.

I asked for a return for the coin, and the original seller replied, "please send the coin to PCGS and have graded. if they say it is not real I will refund and pay for PCGS fee." I would like to have more opinions about this coin, to be sure myself that it is either 100% genuine or 100% counterfeit. I have never sent coins to get graded, but the first coin dealer said he could send it in for about $40 for me.

The coin is slightly overweight, appears to have light corrosion in some spots, and has several large scratches on Lady Liberty. The coin has very rough fields and smooth devices. Parts of the design, especially the fraction, is very weak. Overall, reverse is flat. Could have been in the ground and cleaned off, which resulted in the unevenness of the coin. The color appears to look right for the period, as it is very dark in person.

What is your opinion about the authenticity of this coin?

Thanks in advance





Edit:





Edited by jacrispies
06/08/2021 5:31 pm
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 Posted 06/07/2021  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd love to see larger photos and more close up areas of the date, is this the 98 over 7? Kind of look like it. The corrosion is troubling on many coins not so much on the earlier coppers, many have them, though it can be something to look out for, I'm not seeing anything off hand that say STOP It's A Fake but I won't stake my word on it from these photos, they just aren't good enough to tell.

Much larger, brighter (more light) and straight on with little to no tilt on the camera would help greatly. The last two photos are good but I'd like to see them at least two to four times that size.

I'm seeing a die crack coming off the D in UNITED and I can enlarge the bottom images a bit before they start to break up I just can't tell enough.

Also I can't tell is there a fraction bar or not? That's is not good if it's missing. The Sheldon 64 is the only Large cent to have a missing fraction bar and that's a 1794 date.

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ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
06/07/2021 8:23 pm
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 Posted 06/07/2021  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I asked for a return for the coin, and the original seller replied, "please send the coin to PCGS and have graded. if they say it is not real I will refund and pay for PCGS fee."

So in other words the seller wants you to spend 40.00 of your own money to verify he sold you a legit coin.

I would not want to deal with that seller again.


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Edited by Earle42
06/07/2021 10:38 pm
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 Posted 06/07/2021  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So the seller will not allow you to return the coin without submitting it to a TPG? What were his original return options?
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 Posted 06/07/2021  11:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will get better pictures and post them tomorrow afternoon. I do not see any major die cracks in person. Minor die cracks would be hidden by the rough surface. The fraction bar is there, just extremely faint.

I told the seller there are other cheaper, faster ways to prove the coin is real. His response was, "sorry if you don't want to have it graded I told you that I would pay for PCGS grading of it comes back not real." If I choose to grade it, I will have it back by the earliest mid-August because of my circumstances.

His original advertisement says he doesn't accept returns. That can't be overrun by Ebay's money back guarantee, because it has unfortunately been more than 30 days.
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 Posted 06/08/2021  12:02 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It never matters what the seller says any longer on eBay, one of the reasons I hardly ever sell there any more, the buyer is always right in eBay's mind and too many scammers out there.

That said it looks like the coin has been cleaned or conserved (looks fine and something I would do myself) in the second set of photos, I don't see the green corrosion nor the green spot on the reverse.

What is the eBay item #? I couldn't find it under sold items. I wonder if I know the seller or at least could gain some more info through his other sales.

If you waited more than a month to get an opinion you may indeed be stuck owning this coin regardless of genuine or not. But any dealer worth his weight would honor the guarantee of genuine forever, not just 30 days, that alone is suspect, and sounds like a seller that should be avoided in future. Also just curious what did you pay? Was there any indication of a Sheldon ID attached to the sale?

What about that fraction bar on the reverse? Is there one visible at all?
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
06/08/2021 12:03 am
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 Posted 06/08/2021  12:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What about that fraction bar on the reverse? Is there one visible at all?


You can see it on the second image.
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 Posted 06/08/2021  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first impression is that it is real with mild corrosion.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 06/08/2021  5:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I added more images with different angles and a couple of close ups.

One suspicion that the second coin dealer did not like is the unevenness and "extra metal" in some small areas of the coin. An example is around the date. This could be the effect of the corrosion and conservation.
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 Posted 06/08/2021  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have my suspicions on this one but I will wait to see if
there are other more expert opinions than mine.
It is not an 8 over 7 just to eliminate that.
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 Posted 06/08/2021  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with condor101 I think it's real as well, not a super attractive specimen but real.


Quote:
You can see it on the second image.
To be fair there were only the first four images when I asked that was added after the fact I asked about it.

I do see the fraction bar now. I can't quite tell the Sheldon # I thought 168 or `69 but I'm not convinced.

Still think it's a real coin, not counterfeit.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 06/10/2021  02:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely 168, the die crack through the top of AMERICA is distinctive enough to identify the reverse and that rev is paired with three obverses, two of which have type I hair and large 8's. and 168 that has type II hair and a small 8.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 06/10/2021  11:52 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the confirmation Gary! I'm getting a little better at discerning out the features for attributing these, it's only taken about 5 years so far to get to where I don't feel so out of place trying at all.

Lots of looking at auction catalogs has really helped, can't wait for the world to get back to some sort of normalcy so I can start looking at them in person and real life again.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 06/10/2021  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the info. The Ebay advertisement did not specify any specific information like the die pair. This is my first somewhat "quality" large cent that I took a chance on. I looked up each Sheldon variety for 1798 and compared mine with images on the internet. The T in CENT has a leaf near it. This one has the leaf almost touching the serif of the T, and the overall style of the obverse and reverse led me to believe it is the S-168. I should probably invest in Penny Whimsy by Sheldon.
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 Posted 06/10/2021  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Penny Whimsy" by Sheldon is okay as a read, but no photos. IT's the start of most collectors decent into madness, I mean collecting old coppers.

The best large cent references are the Noyes book set (6 Volumes), but that is really expensive like $600 expensive.

There are some other goodies that may help. The Heritage Walter Husak Catalog and the Goldberg Auctions Dan Holmes set of catalogs, great photos and all the varieties. Both sets are available for free at Newman Numismatic Portal as PDF or just viewable online references.

Here you go (links)...

Walter Husak (starts on page 434) When getting this physical copy look for the special Husak only catalog, each coin get's a full page for the photo. My good friend Mark wrote this catalog and I think it's one of the all time best coin catalogs ever produced.

https://archive.org/details/HaSale4...433/mode/2up

Dan Holmes catalogs...
Pt. #1
https://archive.org/details/danholm...lect0001iral

Pt. #2
https://archive.org/details/danholm...lect0002iral

Pt. #3
http://images.goldbergauctions.com/...ng=1&sale=60

Pt. #4
http://images.goldbergauctions.com/...le=62&lang=1

The last 2 Holmes catalogs are from the Goldberg site and not on the Newman Portal for some reason. I have them all in PDFs but I think I had to locate the last two sales elsewhere, though I can't remember, maybe Goldberg's old site had them?

Don't over look other catalogs from Heritage, Goldbergs, and Stack's or the Pennywise Periodicals on NNP as well, even the complete collection of old Chris Victor-McCawley Catalogs and fixed price lists is there now too.

Books too, John Wright's most excellent The Cent book a classic middle date reference (one of the very best).
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/530759

Newcomb's 3 Large cents books
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/booksbyauthor/1451

Lot's of great reference stuff is free and out there if you look, many of the catalogs and books are found on eBay or Abebooks used at fairly decent prices, consider joining the Early American Coppers http://eacs.org/ Well worth the price IMO. Walter Husak is still around and attends most of the conventions he is a super nice guy and approachable. Dan Holmes sadly passed away after his coin auctions in 2016.

Have a look around the Books and Software forum here on CCF I've put up lists of books there as well as a few reviews, besides coins I collect US Numismatic literature, and spend probably more on books now days than I do on the coins. If you ever have questions just ask in a forum or you can message me directly through email in my profile. If I can help I will.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
06/11/2021 4:45 pm
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 Posted 06/11/2021  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldfordman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@jacrispies If you don't want it, do not play games with the seller. It shows him a weak spot. If he does not let you return it, contact Ebay Customer Support and tell them a seller has denied you a return on an item. They will take care of it and yu should get your return. It is part of the conditions the seller agreed to as he joined eBay. This should work unless you had the coin for a longer amount of time. Specify cause of return as "Item not as specified". It is true due to high concerns of it being a counterfeit.
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