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Toned Morgans. Too Common?

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jacrispies's Avatar
United States
3848 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2023  11:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I read that nicely toned Morgans are rare. That does not seem to be the case because they are everywhere. Dealers have hundreds in inventory. Over 12,000 results on ebay under "toned Morgan dollar."

So, why are the premiums so high if they are easily obtainable?
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Ploopy's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 03/09/2023  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The truly monster toned Morgan dollars are extremely difficult to source. You can find some of the common dates like 1881-S and 1884-O etc without looking too hard. The ones with the real premiums are either A) High grade, usually above 65, or with toning that is extremely unique, and from the mint bags. I do agree that some of them are more common than most people believe.

http://www.jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A 'nicely toned' Morgan can be in any condition.
That is why I do not ascribe any extra value to a coin that may be 'nicely toned'.

What may be important to some is a subjective quality known as 'eye appeal', and to those collectors, they may be happy to pay a small premium.

But not me.
When I see a coin described as 'monster toned', I normally read 'artificially toned', and I may? even be tempted to buy such a coin at zero extra premium.

For me, 'toning' applies to all silver coins in high grade, not just Morgans.
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The problem with toning on 'nicely toned' silver coins is that the nice toning is in a transitory state between 'blast white', and an even darker gray color, and as such, is unstable over the medium to long term. The development of toning can be arrested by enclosing the coin in a truly airtight environment, and some collectors are happy to do this; the value will certainly be unaffected from whatever it currently happens to be.
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United States
2280 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  12:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are certain colors that are highly sought after, considered rare and bring massive premiums.

Check out this site.

https://www.monstertonedmorgans.com/
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2023  08:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is toning, and then there is toning.
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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36420 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  09:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I could never see paying extra for a toned Morgan.
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TimNH's Avatar
United States
416 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TimNH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sometimes I see toning that looks awesome and makes me go 'whoa', but the premiums some folks pay are bewildering. 2 things - how are they certain it isn't artificial (like, do the TPGs have a method of guaranteeing that toning was 'natural' from the bag etc), and do they expect to find another buyer at a similar price when they go to sell? Seems one needs to really-really like it themselves and want to keep it, rather than getting the investment back when it comes time to sell. But, what do I know....
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ijn1944's Avatar
United States
19110 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The marketplace--people will buy (and pay...) for what they like. People being people.
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kbbpll's Avatar
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4233 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a trend that invites manipulation. Decades ago blast white was the trend, which caused a lot of dipping. Same with lowball coins. What people like and pay premiums for today won't be the same years from now.
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 03/09/2023  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coins can tone pretty or tone ugly.

Lots of Morgans were stored in paper rolls and canvas/fabric bags for many years, the chemical composition of which tended to impart a distinctive pattern of toning if kept in the right environment.
This was affected by surface contaminants (dirt, dust, oil from fingerprints) as well as the quality of the air (sulfur content, etc.)

I would not consider nicely toned Morgans rare unless the underlying coin is in and of itself rare.
Do they command a premium in the current market? Yes. That's what people enjoy collecting. IF they are attractively toned.
As someone else noted, toning was once considered a BAD thing and would result in dipping to remove the "unsightly" colors.

Toning itself does not increase the value. There are plenty of "ugly" toned Morgans that have lower eye appeal and might even be closer to environmental damage. Full coin rainbow toning on Uncirculated coins will bring the most money.

There are also some other types of collectible toning you might see on Morgans:

- Textile toning: coins that were directly in contact with the surface of a Mint bag can develop toning that mimics the pattern of the bag's fabric.

- Tidy House toning: the Uncirculated Morgan dollars in 1960s era Tidy House cardboard holders have unique colors and patterns that are not usually seen otherwise.

- End roll toning: Coins stored at the end of open-ended (shotgun) rolls developed peripheral or full-color toning of whichever side was "out", the other side (which was in contact with another coin) is often untoned.

- Album or coin board toning: The side of the coin in contact with the album paper or coin board can fully tone, and the obverse may have peripheral (edge) toning where it is in contact with the album/board.

- Paramount (Redfield) toning: Many of the coins in the red/black Paramount holders, such as those used for the Redfield Hoard, develop a distinct red-orange, gold and electric blue progressive peripheral tone that is uncommon in other Morgans not stored in such holders.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  06:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
'Blast white' is the best presentation to buy silver coins in high MS grades.
That is the way they are, when fresh out of the coining press.

Rainbow toning is just an attractive form of very mild surface corrosion.
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thq's Avatar
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3342 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  08:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's just tarnish. I have coin and sterling silver spoons in an open air display rack. After polishing them back to blast white, it takes about a year for them to reexhibit all the colors of the rainbow, as well as grey shades. Then it's time to polish them again. Silver stored in a drawer stays shiny longer.

Some of them are over 300 years old. They all tarnish at about the same rate, to the same colors, without regard to their age.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/10/2023 08:40 am
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kanga's Avatar
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5825 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  09:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm old school.

My copper coins are all RD, RB or BN (mostly BN); no other colors.
My silver coins are all shades of gray; no other colors.
My gold coins (what few I have) I don't worry about; they don't tone.

What makes it easier for me is that I mostly DON'T collect 20th/21st century coins.
EXCEPTIONS:
-- The tail end of my IHC set.
-- My birth year set (I definitely WASN'T born before 1900)
-- My Early Commemorative set.

Coins dated before 1900 are HIGHLY unlikely to have legitimate colorful toning.
Edited by kanga
03/10/2023 09:15 am
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Some of them are over 300 years old. They all tarnish at about the same rate, to the same colors, without regard to their age.



Quote:
Coins dated before 1900 are HIGHLY unlikely to have legitimate colorful toning.


Those two statements would appear to contradict each other.

I think my oldest "toner" is a Diocletian (it's almost certainly cleaned and retoned), followed by a Denar of Maria of Hungary (probably also cleaned and retoned.) The oldest coin I have which I would 100% stone cold swear on my life has natural rainbow toning is from 1848, and it's just a thin band of peripheral color.

@thq, I have noticed that silver plate seems to be more likely to tarnish black than coin silver or sterling, in terms of flatware, but I don't know why exactly. I have a full set of 1940s International silver-plated flatware that never gets color, only black, but I have a .925 pie server from the 1880s that will color tone a bit. All are stored in a velvet-lined drawer in my vintage Drexel MCM sideboard.
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thq's Avatar
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3342 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
paralyse, my spoon display rack is in open air, which is not how most people store their silver coins and flatware. I don't see the colorful tarnish on the silverware in the drawer, which slowly turns an ugly uneven gray with time between polishings. We live in a town with a kraft pulp mill, so there is always some reduced sulfur in our air.

When I have used silver dollars in belt buckles they have slowly turned grey. I suppose that a lucky person might get other colors. Maybe cleaning has something to do with the coloration? Dipping or Silver Brite polish chemical might prep the surface.

I also have some open-air display sterling cups and bowls. These always tarnish grey, though they get polished the same way as the spoons.

The oldest spoons that I have have been polished so much that the hallmarks are barely visible. It's ironic that the whole business of "original surfaces" prized by coin collectors is the opposite of what people desire sitting next to their dinner. We eat lutefisk at Christmas, which is renowned for turning sterling black after one meal. The silver has to be polished afterwards. No one wants to eat lutefisk with a black fork.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/10/2023 4:40 pm
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2023  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most of the "natural environment" color toners I see are either in rolls, albums, or other sorts of cardboard holders like Tidy House, or some from vault bags.
It appears that some chemicals in the papers used or cloth used are causing the effect.

I've heard sulfur in the air plays a part in toning but I am far from an expert on the chemistry involved with toning.

I can honestly say that out of all the silver I've ever owned, whether stored in a chest, a cabinet, or open air, none of it has ever rainbow toned. The only one that has is that single old pie server which has been polished a billion times. The only other silver I have in the open air is a .900 tea set that just gets dull gray.

IIRC lutefisk is made with lye (=sodium hydroxide) which is a powerful alkaline caustic agent. Sodium hydroxide would react with elemental silver (oxidation) to form a surface layer of silver oxide, which is a nasty brownish/black color. Any sulfur compounds present would also react to form tarnish.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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