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 Replies: 18 / Views: 3,342 |
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
My thoughts on Grading.. by an admittedly disappointed customer. A recent group of coins came back slabbed, marked not gradeable.
I think that PCGS and others are doing the coin community a great disservice by working under the misguided premise that some coins ...that might have been cleaned sometime in the past, are unworthy of grading. The premise as far as I have read and understood, equates toning with other kinds of antiques collectables that lose value when cleaned. At first blush this seams to make sense. If you replace an original finish on a piece of furniture for example, it loses value..... But is it the same thing when a coin has been cleaned? I don't think so.? A tone on a coin is not an original finish. The radial shine is more akin to an original finish I think. To be sure, for good reasons, a coin who's tone is reflective of it's passage through time, may have an aesthetic appeal worthy of a high grade.. And the lack of this subjective aesthetic may merit a coin worthy of a low grade to be sure.
But to determine that a coin is not worthy of any grade is ridiculous in my opinion It seems to me that there is something far too subjective in this approach.
This (aesthetic) crapshoot hands PCGS and others a great deal of power to determine and control the market. If the grading services have the final say over the market... is this not a recipe for corruption? The incentives for both grading service and client, go in the wrong direction for an honest market. The pressure for the Grading service, is to keep high grade coins rare. The incentive on the other hand for the client is also perverse.. forgery. If the inexact phantom of aesthetic is removed as a grading contingency.... The grading would be driven by the reality of the coin's condition. Yes, aggressive cleaning would downgrade a coin,( ruined surface) . But it would get a grade. The aesthetic appeal would, in all marginal circumstances, be in the hands of the buyer‘s aesthetic.. instead, some coins are ugly toned.. (Low grade) beautiful toned, (higher grade). The absurdity of the situation is illustrated by an earlier fashion would make blast white coins, the ideal standard of beauty.
Of course there are the coins that are not marginal.... Ancient, heavily toned and weathered, buried or drug up from the ocean floor, who's tone does genuinely reflect its circumstance. ...is that not different from a coin that has discoloration from bad storage..or dust?
In the field of Painting ..a market I know well, cleaning and restoring is the standard for a discolored work. Its original finish is not enhanced by the surface dirt, to the contrary. Not exactly comparing like to like... but food for thought perhaps. I would be interested to hear what the many folks here think, and to have any of my assumptions corrected.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
968 Posts |
I mostly look at TPG's as being useful for authenticating a coin. I'm not as concerned about the grade. From what I understand ANACS is the most liberal about slabbing a coin. They may slap a cleaned label on it, but at least they wouldn't send the coins back in a body bag unless there were major issues that would be obvious to most anyone. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
It's not the TPG's. The overwhelming body of numismatists, collectors like you and I, feel that cleaning a coin at any point during its' life diminishes its' value, and we're willing to pay more for an original coin. I know I am. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:
In the field of Painting ..a market I know well, cleaning and restoring is the standard for a discolored work. Its original finish is not enhanced by the surface dirt, to the contrary. Not exactly comparing like to like... but food for thought perhaps. And true restoring old paintings, castles, the Colliseum, old buildings in some towns, etc are better if restored, cleaned, etc. Yet it works the opposite with old furniture, Mummies in Museums, Stamps and coins. It is just that some things are best left alone. There are numerous examples of items that are better restored and then many just the opposite. Take an old Mauser Broom Handle, 9mm. Rebluing, rerifleing, add new handles, etc. and you just lost almost all value. Restore and old Indian hand made blanket and it's now worth many times more. Now I wonder if in the future a cleaned Beanie Babie will have lost it's value.  As to TPGS's, remember like any organization, they are in buisness to make money, not friends. Yes there are many that dislike them but I don't think the ones like PCGS or NGC really care if you like them or not. They are, like the police, a necessity today. |
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Valued Member
United States
320 Posts |
The grading services are there to enforce a certain standard. Seems to me that your issue would be with the standard, not with the company.
More later, my thoughts are percolating on the remainder of this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
I avoid toned coins like the plague. Toning means there is an issue with the surface. The surface is reacting with from something external. In my opinion, toning DOES hide problems. No different than a carbon or milk spot. The coin has a problem....and it will get worse with time...even in a TPG capsule. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10034 Posts |
So why not still grade the coins but put a big, bold CLEANED in front of the grade (based on wear as they used to do in the old days - such as "full LIBERTY must show"). That way they also might make a second market for their business.
Just like an MS69 will not sell for as much as an MS70, a coin with a "CLEANED" label would go for less. Hey - how about making the label an entirely, unique, different color? A CLEANED (colored) label XF 09 VDBS LMS would not sell for as much as a normal XF 09 VDBS LCM and be instantly recognizable as such by the different color.
I am ignorant on slabbed coins for the most part - so maybe I am talking nonsense?
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2 |
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Valued Member
United States
309 Posts |
Totally agree. Not a fan of TPG's in any form. How many coins have we seen that are high grade because they were submitted in bulk and for these TPG's to keep that level of repeat business, grade higer for those bulk submissions. I've got some graded "first strike" coins that are nowhere near what they should be. Authenticate the coin and leave the grading to me. Thank you TPG's. |
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Pillar of the Community
1028 Posts |
Quote:It's not the TPG's. The overwhelming body of numismatists, collectors like you and I, feel that cleaning a coin at any point during its' life diminishes its' value, and we're willing to pay more for an original coin. I know I am. This is the best post of the thread and one I agree with. Generally, I think the job of a TPG is to authenticate the coin AND its originality. Then as a bonus provide their interpretation of a grade. As my quoted comment above states, collectors have overwhelmingly decided that they want notification of whether or not a coin has been cleaned. I personally believe a cleaned coin should be slabbed (with proper notification), but to grade a "details cleaned" coin the same as a "details uncleaned" is preposterous and your analogies are inappropriate. Go with ANACS, they grade cleaned coins, but they let you know its cleaned. To the OP; There were many different statements and accusations being made in your post and I got the impression that none of it was entirely sincere and you came off as just bitter about your most recent submissions coming back un-slabbed. Edited by hesgut
11/18/2011 8:28 pm
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Valued Member
United States
320 Posts |
So, on the subject of works of art versus coins- Works of art are restored by teams of people who have apprenticed for this task and have many many hours invested in each restoration. Coins are cleaned with the swish of a cloth. Works of art are restored after hundreds of years of environmental damage. Coins...maybe, but a Walking Liberty half is still a babe in arms in comparison. I'd wager your submission is in the same boat, chronologically speaking. With works of art the idea is to painstakingly keep as much of the original piece as is possible. It is usually not so much for restoration as it is preservation for the future and the common good. With coins, the idea is to make it look better than it really is, often for a profit. And last with works of art there is exactly one of them and if you allow it to stay dirty it will degrade it and...that's it. There is no more. with coins there are usually millions of them, or even thousands, or even dozens. It doesn't matter. When there are multiples it changes the game considerably. So, no. The comparison is not valid. |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
A TPG will do what a TPG does. I agree with the original premise. I am also happy to pay more for a coin that has not been interfered with. However, some coins NEED to be cleaned to be marketable. That applies to some ancients that have been freshly dug up, and to some shipwreck coins. Some TPG's won't grade ancients. I certainly see the value in the authentication of a graded coin. If a coin has not received a grade because it has been cleaned, I see an even greater possibility to buy it, because there is more scope for negotiation on the price. |
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Valued Member
 United States
59 Posts |
Am I 'bitter' asks hesgut? I think that may be a bit strong. I felt that I needed to state upfront that I was not happy with the lack of a grade...if it was not already obvious by the content. Obviously too, I believe in the grading process... but the bottom line is that being contingent on something so illusive as dust accumulated around the lettering,(thus proving that it was dusted elsewhere? Seems a bit thin. I will show you what I mean in my next posting ...but I have to run. Thanks all.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:Works of art are restored by teams of people who have apprenticed for this task and have many many hours invested in each restoration. Coins are cleaned with the swish of a cloth. Works of art are restored after hundreds of years of environmental damage. Coins...maybe, but a Walking Liberty half is still a babe in arms in comparison. I'd wager your submission is in the same boat, chronologically speaking. With works of art the idea is to painstakingly keep as much of the original piece as is possible. It is usually not so much for restoration as it is preservation for the future and the common good. With coins, the idea is to make it look better than it really is, often for a profit. And last with works of art there is exactly one of them and if you allow it to stay dirty it will degrade it and...that's it. There is no more. with coins there are usually millions of them, or even thousands, or even dozens. It doesn't matter. When there are multiples it changes the game considerably. So, no. The comparison is not valid. Not to start an argument but as an example of people with masses amounts of experiences with old restorations, when my Son was at the you of Krakow, they had college kids help with the restoration of old castles. Inbetween parties of course. Although with coins it is true that there are not only one, except in some instances, like a work of art. In many instances although many were made, few if any are left. And with some coins, Large Cents for an example, there are many of only a few or just one. And I'm sure if you ask those into really old coins, they too would say many are Unique and also a sort of work of art. Kind of the opposite of your story. On an opposite note about toned coins. I sort of wish people wouldn't mention them. With the Mint becoming sort of like most organizations that have a tendency to over kill, I would suspect the next thing our Mint will do is start selling Toned coins they make themselves.  |
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New Member
Mexico
22 Posts |
Quite a diverse set of thoughts on this subject. Most Ancient coins have been cleaned and as such, are gradeable by both NGC and Anacs. I have no issues with the opinions in this thread. But I do have issues with the TPG's who are not consistant in their grading principles. I have a rather large collection of Central American Republic coins and some are graded AU58 that have obvious cleaning hairlines but have not been rejected. I have sent in others better than those and they come back with 'HAIRLINES'. Go figure! |
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Valued Member
Australia
243 Posts |
TPG's should be used just to authenticate a coin. Grading is too subjective and based on personal opinion - as the old saying goes "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". As a collector and not an investor, I would never get any of my coins slabbed because I hate the whole idea of the coin being sealed into a case.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:
TPG's should be used just to authenticate a coin. Grading is too subjective and based on personal opinion - as the old saying goes "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". As a collector and not an investor, I would never get any of my coins slabbed because I hate the whole idea of the coin being sealed into a case. AND your far from the only one thinking like that but then too, one of the great things about this hobby is so many differences in the aspects of coin collecting. I too hate slabs, have none, don't want any, however, on the other side of the coin, so to speak, there are many with masses amounts of slabbed coins. There is no right nor wrong way to be a Numismatist. |
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Replies: 18 / Views: 3,342 |
Posted 11/18/2011 11:05 am
